Transcript: Historic District Commission Meeting

Dawn Melson-Williams

Good afternoon and welcome to the City of Dover Historic District Commission meeting. I'm Dawn Melson-Williams, the principal planner with the city's planning office. I will be the host for the meeting, the Historic District Commission meeting here on August 20th. The time now is just after 3:30 p.m. We are in-person location is the City Council Chambers, and the meeting is also being presented virtually using the Webex meeting platform. With that, I am going to turn it over to the chair.

Chair

All right, thank you very much. I'd like to welcome everybody to today's meeting of the Historic District Commission for August 20th, 2024. I hope everybody had a good summer. Uh can we start off with the roll call, please?

City Clerk

Ms. Horsey?

Historic District Commission Member

Present.

City Clerk

Ms. Mason?

Historic District Commission Member

Present.

City Clerk

Ms. Stephenson?

Historic District Commission Member

Present.

City Clerk

Mr. Czerwinski?

Chair

Present.

Dawn Melson-Williams

Mr. Chair, this is Dawn with the planning office. You have four members of the Historic District Commission present today. That is your fully appointed contingent. It is a quorum to conduct business.

Chair

All right, thank you very much, uh Dawn. Let's see, uh we'll move on to the approval of the agenda. Does anybody have any questions, any agendas for today?

Historic District Commission Member

I move to approve the agenda.

Historic District Commission Member

Second.

Chair

All in favor say aye. Opposed? All right, so it looks like we have approval of the agenda.

Chair

Let's move on for the approval of the minutes from uh July 16, 2024. Does anybody have any questions or corrections?

Historic District Commission Member

Uh there was, um, on page 4, Mr. Richie's name is spelled incorrectly. And I can't find it now, but the word homage was spelled homige instead of h-o-m-a-g-e. They spelled o-m-i-g-e versus h-o.

Chair

All right.

Historic District Commission Member

Other than that, that's what I have.

Chair

All right, so uh can we uh get approval with the noted corrections?

Historic District Commission Member

I move that we accept with the noted corrections.

Historic District Commission Member

Second.

Chair

All in favor say aye. Opposed? All right, so the minutes are approved for July 16, 2024.

Chair

All right, let's move on to communications and reports. Uh summary of activity.

Dawn Melson-Williams

So this is Dawn with the planning office. First under the summary of activity, we have a summary of applications focusing on uh 2024 here. Uh today you will uh be considering uh items that have been assigned uh numbers uh 3 and 4 for the calendar year, uh but you've actually seen five applications you will have seen. Total of five applications as one was a revision that uh revisited you in June and July. Um that those uh items are specifically listed here for 2024. Um this seems to be the year of referral of permits uh before you at this point in time. Uh happy to answer any questions on on those permits at this point, or those applications.

Dawn Melson-Williams

If there are no questions on that, I will move to our next um summary, and that is a summary of the architectural review certifications um for 2024. This is where we track permit activities within the historic district zone. Uh and this uh listing table gives us uh those permits within the uh historic district area through the end of July. Uh there have been a total of 29 um permits that uh we have reviewed uh for activities. Uh the highest ones include uh some building exterior ones and fences followed by some roof permits. Uh 23 of those permits were able to be reviewed by staff under the authority given to us in the zoning ordinance, and there were six that had some involvement with the Historic District um Commission. Um the July activities um that were added to this uh probably most notably was the siding permit related to 108 South Governors Avenue, um and also some pending porch work at that same location. Are are there any questions on the permits that have been um issued here in the historic district?

Dawn Melson-Williams

Seeing that there are no questions regarding that, um staff will move right into the Department of Planning and Inspections update. Um that one of the key updates for you is that um we now also have a Planner II on staff, and that is Chris Saldana. Uh Chris was with the city um about a year ago and has rejoined our staff uh in recent weeks since your last meeting. Um and in case you didn't meet him last time, we had um Alex Dewey, who is a Planner I with the city. Um he's still with us, yay. Um so have some a little bit more staff in the planning office. With that, that is the updates I have for you at this point.

Chair

All right, thank you. Any other questions? Uh so next item is new business.

Dawn Melson-Williams

Yes, there's two new applications. Um we always place new business the referral permits under new business.

Chair

I got you. All right, so let's move on to new business. Review of permits referred to commission. All right, the first one to do today is HI-24-03, referral fence, fence permit number 24-1225 at 103 South Governors Ave.

Dawn Melson-Williams

So how this'll work with the referral permits, staff will give an introduction of the um of the request. Uh the applicant will be given an opportunity to speak, and then we'll move into um any questions that the commission members may have of the particular um application to staff or to the applicant. Uh with a referral of permit, there is not a requirement for a public hearing. Um but it is really it's a consultation with the Historic District Commission in regards to being able to issue what is called the architectural review certification, uh which is the process of review for activities in the historic district.

Dawn Melson-Williams

So, um beginning with this first uh fence permit, um 16 uh 1225, uh this is 103 South Governors Avenue. I'm going to bring up the uh location drawing for this. Uh this is actually a series of parcels uh there at the corner of Governors Avenue, Reed Street, and South Bradford Street, uh where we find uh the Dover Fire Department, uh their building Station 1, uh and the associated parking lot areas. Uh the fence permit that is uh been submitted by the fire department is to um place a fence uh to enclose their parking lots. There are two parking lot areas, one to the east of the building as you move along Reed Street towards uh South Bradford Street, and then a second parking lot area that has frontage on South Governors Avenue to the south of the building. In their permit submission, they are uh proposing a 6-foot tall black ornamental or metal fence uh to surround these parking areas, intending to be installed in what is a kind of a curb line that we find in those parking lots. They are also proposing uh vehicle gates at the entrance points. These parking lots have several points of access for um from vehicles.

Dawn Melson-Williams

The reason it's here before the Historic District Commission um as part of the architectural review certification, uh we're looking at activities that are visible from public view, and that is visible from a public street. Um and we've got three public streets um surrounding this property. Uh that uh causes us to go to the design standards and guidelines for the City of Dover Historic District Zone. Uh that specific document um guides staff and the Historic District Commission and Planning Commission in reviewing activity in the historic district. Uh specifically related to fences, there's a discussion in chapter 3, um and that uh very specifically says that fences uh should not exceed 4 feet in height uh in the historic district zone. Uh that chapter also focuses on the um more appropriate materials for for fences, um and so those two things are kind of part of our discussions today.

Dawn Melson-Williams

Uh with fences, our zoning ordinance also includes provisions that uh give us guidance on the height of fences. In a front yard area, fences would be limited to 4 feet. Uh technically, in how this property is zoned, um there is no front yard setback minimum, um but for the balance of the property, uh fences are allowed to, under zoning provisions, uh for a nonresidential property be as tall as um eight as 8 feet in in in height. Uh the other thing our zoning ordinance talks about is when you have two street intersections come together um in corner visibility area where the height is limited uh to ensure that you can uh as you approach that intersection, uh see that secondary street.

Dawn Melson-Williams

Uh so today the Historic District Commission is considering the fence project, um and in our report uh we gave in our key findings in reviewing the permit, uh the fence obviously is to surround parking lot areas. It is all it is visible from the adjacent public streets. Uh for the height, and this is part of the um deliberation today, it is proposed at 6 feet, where the standards for the Historic District Commission would suggest that fences should be no taller than 4 feet in height, um but because it's coming before this body, uh you have the ability to consider alternatives um to that that 4 feet that's in your guidelines. Uh the fence material um as depicted by the applicant is a black ornamental steel. Um staff did have some additional questions about the formal uh style of that fence, if it's picket and um and how that uh is being proposed. Um I believe we'll hear from the applicant on that. And um in our report we also gave uh some recommendations uh related to this fence enclosure, noting that it is visible from the various streets. Uh there are gate opportunities, and those are set back from the um the intersection with the street, so there's a little bit of an entrance space before a vehicle would reach the the gate system. Um seeking some clarification on the the format of that gate, um as if it's going to be a sliding function or something that swings. The uh fence at the intersection of South Bradford Street and uh Reed Street, we're looking for a little bit of clarification about where exactly that fence is to be placed, as the property line is kind of right along the sidewalk, however the the curb line of the parking lot is on the west side of uh several trees in that area, so just to clarify where the fence would be located for that segment specifically. Um planning staff is recommending approval of the the fence, uh noting the uh materials are something that could be considered here in the historic district, and we're looking at the um 6-foot height as a um a byproduct of the intention for this to provide some additional security at the at the location, a location there. Um we did have one additional question about um there is an existing fence line um that is the south edge of the, we call it the the Governors Avenue um parking lot piece. Currently there is a chain link fence there of um somewhat questionable probably uh condition. Um I believe it is a the regular steel-colored fencing. Uh we were looking for clarification about whether that fence would be removed, um and what that entails with this project. Um we're certainly recommending that uh if you're improving fencing that that should be that area should also be included in the the permit submission itself. Uh so the uh planning or the Historic District Commission was provided this staff review report along with a series of exhibit items including the permit submission,

Dawn Melson-Williams

um a fence guidelines and a number of kind of street view shots that we've pulled from online to give you a sense of the various views of um these fenced areas. So Mr. Chair, at this point I think it would be appropriate to hear from the applicant. We have a representative here today um and then we can move into questions before um the Commission takes action.

Chair

All right. If you want to come down and state your name, please. Thank you.

Brian Bashista

Good afternoon. My name is Brian Bashista, Dover Fire Department.

Chair

Thank you for being here. Do you want to explain uh do you want to explain the project?

Brian Bashista

Sure. First of all, I'd like to thank you for the opportunity to come speak to you today. I uh I've struggled with this for quite some time because I've been with the fire department almost all my life and uh the last thing, I've been Fire Chief for a long time, President for a long time, so I'm proud, and the last thing I wanted to ever see is a fence around that parking lot. And I was also the Fire Chief when we built the building and um built what we have today, right? So I I've got a lot invested in it, as does the membership. However, we find ourselves today um things have changed downtown. And uh we have issues um in the parking lot with drug activity, with uh we have numerous, numerous uh cars that have been broken into of uh of uh men and women's vehicles, and uh we have noticed long-standing on key doors for the firehouse um because people wander the building a lot of times. So, we're trying to be proactive. Um I'm sure everybody's read in the paper what's came up at City Council meetings across the campus, and um again it's it's life-saving that we have. So, the the fence itself is uh what we can talk about, I guess. So, if you're ready and

Brian Bashista

So, this is the style fence we're looking at. Um this would go down the Reed Street side of the building, and and uh this is we go through the slide shows as we switch pictures on the screen exactly what we're talking about. Um one thing that was mentioned was on Governors Avenue, south side of the building. Um currently there's a fence there which is against the city lot, Ding Lee's Laundry, and uh that is a uh traditional fence. Um we want to replace that fence with like fence on that side of the building, um but it would be black in color so it matches everything else we're doing, um up to the awning, there's a property there. Um if you look at uh Yeah, so if you look at the right side of that picture, you can barely see in the picture where that chain link fence runs down the south side of the parking lot. Um it's old, it's bent up. It's So we're going to replace that as part of this project. I believe the city put that in when they paved that lot, and uh we're just going to replace it now ourselves. And uh that would be a black vinyl-covered similar fence to what's there today. Now, rest of the fence around the property if you can bring up the Reed Street side possibly.

Brian Bashista

So that that that's that's a great picture. So if you look at that picture towards um burning south so looking towards Valley Forge South, um that curb falls along there. What we're looking at is we're going to mount the fence actually on the top of that curb. So it wouldn't be near the tree line, it would be the sidewalk. It would be actually on the curb itself. And it would go following the curb right past Robbins Band, right to the corner and follow the curb all the way around the parking lot towards the Ingrams property. And then at the back side it's hard to see here, but there's a carport in back of Robbins. And there's actually a a six-foot fence very similar to the one that is in back the Ingrams property, across the back of the house back where these guys park when they're supposed to work back there. So there's a very similar fence to what we're looking at uh on on that Donnelly gas. Um we did meet with the Reverend um at the neighbors. She's up with Dallis and uh spoke about it and they wanted pretty much anything. They were for security. Thank you. Um again, this this really has to do with safety. Um our team members and firefighters because uh you know, we come and go at all times of day and night. And uh there's a lot of things going on there. Um we've had uh well, we've had people living where the trash can stored. We've had people living where the air conditioning got drunk, stuff on the ground, you know, and uh we're just trying to protect ourselves. That's what this for us.

Chair

Okay. Thank you. Does anybody have any questions?

Commissioner

Can you describe the fence? It actually is mounted or sit on the curb itself?

Brian Bashista

Yes.

Commissioner

The stakes, that would have to What? Would they go into the curb itself?

Brian Bashista

Yeah, so what they're going to do is they're going to drill So this is these fences are built light. It's uh you can buy this in aluminum, which aluminum bends over time, and I was I was a little concerned about it because strengths and stuff that bends. So this is actually a steel fence. Um so it's not going to bend, and I think it's going to it should last longer. And um so it will be mounted and they're going to drill into the curb and mount it into the curb on the top. So it would be very secure.

Commissioner

And the second question, how are the sliding gates operational? Somebody actually is standing there and let the responders in or is it automated?

Brian Bashista

How it's going to work is um when the fire siren blows, that gate is going to open for 10 minutes, and our doors are going to be unlocked. Um it goes by ours, right? So if there's a and and you have to remember today things are a little slightly different than what they once were. We don't blow the fire siren for an EMS hit because we have firefighters volunteer firefighters that stay at the firehouse on shifts. And when there is a significant fire, now and about actually 15 times a month the fire siren's blown. So when that happens and first responders coming in, those gates are going to open for 10 minutes. Now, if uh let's just say I'm going to the firehouse when I leave this meeting, um there's going to be a clickers that each member's going to have for the gate. Plus, part of this project is we're going to have all the members, just like they have the key code into the building, they're going to have a clicker to get inside the parking lot. And then on the uh actually on the Governors Avenue side of the building, um there will also have uh gates on the

Commissioner

How many gates and also this is something again I can't really see it. Where are the gates going to be?

Brian Bashista

The the vehicle gates?

Commissioner

Yes.

Brian Bashista

So, if you're on Governors Avenue So, this is the city parking lot, Dinglees, the city parking lot. So, right here it's the the firehouse, right? So, there's going to be a gate here. It's going to open up like this for traffic. You only open that area so 25 people can get inside of it. Um we also um put in very safe gates. Some will be gates for cars. Okay. These gates So we'll have one gate there, a gate on Bradford Street. We're also going to have a gate Reed Street entry way is, just off Broadway. There's a gate planned there. Bradford Street gate will be also. So near small police So we will have all...

Commissioner

I have to be honest with you. It's going to be ugly. It's going to look like a...

Brian Bashista

So currently Currently there is Okay, these.

Commissioner

Thank you. That was all I had.

Brian Bashista

You're welcome.

Commissioner

I'm a neighbor. I live at 317 South Bradford Street. And more does happen outside of my...

Commissioner

Well, um with regard to uh say Reed Street gate, is that a gate that uh that opens onto what looks like a little uh a little alleyway egress next to the building?

Brian Bashista

Yes. That is Reed Street.

Commissioner

Okay, so I think this So there are three gates then. All right. Good.

Commissioner

I would imagine you all have considered something other than a fence. What else was considered?

Brian Bashista

So we've uh we if you drive by there at night you know it's like a football field. It's as bright as can be. We've got cameras all the way around the building, and uh well,

Commissioner

Yes, my car was broken into three times in the last year. Uh so I know I understand what you're talking about. Has uh has there besides the uh the car thefts, have there been any other concerns that uh you um firefighters might have experienced?

Brian Bashista

Besides the property theft?

Commissioner

Well,

Brian Bashista

We had a young man murdered 30 ft in front of the Governors Avenue entrance about a year ago. He was chased through the city lot into firehouse lot, just as easy when they started to shoot at him. You know, and bullets This fence does not keep bullets out, but uh what one thing that I'm very afraid of is that uh we've got a lot of young firefighters, and they go out there in the middle of the night, or they go out there going out to their car, and somebody's breaking into their car, something bad's going to happen. And that's, you know, it's a concern.

Commissioner

Has uh has the uh transgressions continued a pace or have you noticed that they have waned as well over time?

Brian Bashista

I mean it's gotten worse. You know, I it's it's interesting, I think sometimes downtown so you can see how it's improved from purple and governors, right? And uh however, I would tell you that uh and and sometimes I think it's worse because of social media, right? Because we know everything today, where we didn't know everything before. But 30 years ago, I've joined the firehouse in 1984 in the fire. And uh they were still shooting on Perkins Street morning, but you didn't hear about it then, right? Today, you everybody hears about it. But the problems in that lot and the firehouse tell you have gotten worse. Um summertime is worse, right? Nice out. Winter's really cold, maybe not as worse. But um it's not being It's not It's not gotten better. And uh

Commissioner

Thank you for sharing that.

Brian Bashista

You're welcome.

Commissioner

Now just Just out of curiosity, how long were you Chief at Robbins?

Brian Bashista

Well, uh long time. In 18 in 2011 to 2014, something like that.

Commissioner

Thank you.

Audience Member

Yeah, I got a couple of questions. Um, how many spots are in the south parking lot?

Brian

That's a great question. I don't know off the top of my head, but I know...

Audience Member

Well, the reason I ask, if you get an alarm, how many firefighters respond to station? What's your average?

Brian

20.

Audience Member

All right. The reason I'm asking is I find this aesthetically tragic to say the least. We don't have to build a That looks like something appropriate for a mall. Not at a fire station. And I kind of have a problem. I can understand the south parking lot wanting security because full-time staff parks there. So, I mean,

Audience Member

So, I'm kind of hesitant to to say that it's okay to go ahead and put a a fence around a large parking lot where 99% of the time, the parking lot's not filled. And then to this film, it's for somebody that's going to be there for a couple hours. You know what I mean?

Brian

No, I I totally agree. So, there is no staff that is parking there all the time.

Audience Member

Well, you have emergency personnel signs in the south parking spots. It's 11 of them. So, do your firefighters not use that lot? They use both lots.

Audience Member

So, you're saying there's not enough parking spots in the south parking...

Brian

We use we use both lots all the time. So, for instance, if you drive by there this evening around between 6:00 and 7:00, there will probably be 20-plus cars there, and they'll be in both lots.

Audience Member

Okay.

Chair

All right. Does anybody else have any questions?

Speaker 3

How many parking spaces are proposed? What's the What's the...

Speaker 3

What towards Bradford Street? Is it 27, and then how much added?

Audience Member

I'm just asking if the side the south parking lot, if that had the fence line around it, if that would be enough.

Brian

So, when you say the south parking lot...

Audience Member

The south parking spots near Governor's. The 15 Governor's Ave lot? Right.

Audience Member

Because you again, you know, right, that's what I'm talking about. So, they definitely use that lot more than the other one. You get to see it with all the cars. It's always pretty full.

Audience Member

I can understand that would be security, because a lot of times, you see cars overnight. Yeah. In that lot.

Brian

Well, they're parking there overnight because the other parking lot is around near quite a bunch.

Audience Member

Right. Right. And I'm just saying if they use the south parking lot or the Governor's parking lot and secure that with a fence to alleviate having a huge parking lot that you don't fill. We do fill it, though. I have to disagree. Uh, when do you When do you call everybody in that parking lot the it's filled at Bradford?

Brian

Bradford Street? I would tell you Bradford's full. I can certainly do a survey of it. I can actually do video at all times and show you the exact times it's filled, but I would bet the you know, if you go by there this evening around 6:00, there will be cars in that lot.

Speaker 3

Um Eric, this is all contradictory. It seems to me that we don't want to force the volunteer fire department personnel to have to make a choice of whether their car is going to be secure or whether they will be secure or not.

Audience Member

No, no. I understand that. But the other side is there are people that live on the street. I park my car is on the street. I'm not that. And I'm downtown as well, not right there. But we all take that. Now, we all park on the street in the downtown city. And that And if I'm trying to balance the fact that the the lay of the land is going to be forever changed when you have a fence that's that's a security fence, and it's nothing pretty about it. And you do that to the neighborhood. Now once you do that, it's it's changes the landscape of that. And that's what I'm concerned about. You got a fence that that's a security fence. It's not they're approved with a brick.

Speaker 3

Understood. I understand that.

Audience Member

And that's my concerns. I'm trying to look at a workaround here to what you've said. You've Governor's, that's adequate, which could be, you know, like I said, it might or might not be, so that's why I asked you a question. Yes, sir. Secure You know, using the fence line on that and leave the other fence the parking lot alone. You know, that that might suffice. And that's all I asked.

Speaker 3

Just another comment, historically, um metal wrought metal fences were used a lot. And a lot of them were taken down uh during the 20th century because people didn't like them or they fell into disrepair. Um so 6-ft is for today's environment, it's the only way to go. But I can also say as far as we have a fence around that lot historically, we don't know that. So I'm not concerned that way, let's say. But yeah,

Audience Member

Well, historically, I don't think that fence goes back before maybe the '60s, you know, when they tore down there used to be Victorian houses all on that lot, so I hope people don't think there was a fence on that, but...

Speaker 3

There were a lot of fences in Dover, we know that. Yep.

Chair

All right. So, if everybody's happy, Mike, did you have another...

Speaker 4

Um I took a walk on Monday and took photographs, and I was extremely impressed with the beauty of Bradford Street and the 4-ft fences. Uh, it also came to my mind that a 6-ft fence it's going to be a what it is, guys. And so, um I think a lot a lot of attention needs to be paid to uh to what that additional metal brings and how uh what it says about our city. And it's It is painful either way. It is just painful either way. And I couldn't help but notice, um, that uh the largest amount of fencing in that area, um, is at People's Church. And it's funny, the curves are magnificent. The curves, I think, are what softened it to me. And so, um jaggedness might be something just to give another look.

Brian

These these look very sturdy.

Speaker 4

How How far How far are they from the sidewalk?

Brian

I'm sorry. I'm not certain.

Speaker 4

Stop. Yeah, nobody's going anywhere, that's right. That's true. Yeah. Yeah.

Speaker 4

It At the same time, you know, we're still living in a in a dynamic community. Um and we're going to have big uh Punkin Chunkin Saturdays. So, uh I appreciate uh the comments that that all of us thinking about how how things will look, how it will feel to be here, how we can encourage people of goodwill to come and be a part of our community and help those who may not we're seeking alternative lifestyles to be able to do what they need to do and survive, you know, so well. When they reject Yeah. This is a challenge. Thank you all.

Brian

All right. Thank you very much.

Chair

All right. Um, does anybody have anything they want to talk about before we put this on the floor?

Audience Member

I mean, I can say my personal feeling is I get, you know, I stand there and I have to do it, but I wouldn't understand why it's being done. So, I want Just so I'm trying to ask dark questions, and try to look at it. It's obvious that that at Governors Street parking lot, um, that's the place that, you know, I always saw them, you know, firefighters responding. So, I can understand that one. You know, so.

Dawn Melson-Williams

Uh Mr. Chair, before you go any further, I want to acknowledge that the uh the fire chief, David Carey, has joined us virtually. Um I'm going to see if he needs to make any statement, or if uh Brian speaking um has done the trick here. Um He may just be able to be listening.

David Carey

Brian Brian is speaking on my behalf.

Dawn Melson-Williams

Okay. So, that was David Carey, who's the uh current fire chief for Robins Fire, um and Brian is speaking on behalf of the department.

Chair

All right. Does someone want to put forth a motion?

Speaker 3

I'd be happy to do that. Um, I move approval of fence permit 26-1225 for 103 South Governors Avenue, 116 South Bradford Street, and other unidentified parcels.

Chair

A second?

Chair

All in favor, say aye.

Multiple Speakers

Aye.

Chair

All against? Okay. So, we have unanimous.

Dawn Melson-Williams

Uh, so, the um and that is raining approval to the fence permit at a um 6-ft height. And, obviously, recognizing the additional information that was provided here today. Um what planning staff will do is uh in the next week here work through uh processing of the permit uh for our review. And uh move that along in our permit review process.

Chair

All right. Great. Okay. Let's move on to our next um architectural review uh review certification, uh HI-26-04 referral fence permit number 26-12150, 46 South Bradford Street.

Applicant

Yeah, today is basically just to give a little bit more background on the project. We're adding HVAC systems to the church. As of right now, we had limited heating and air. They had very very few ACs, and we're going to be upgrading that so the entire building is now going to have a nice cooling system and a heating system that works and looks nice. It's cost more money for the church itself. So, how much you folks would like to get into about the system or anything like that?

Board Member 1

No, I think that's necessarily. What we can do is

Applicant

Down at number 4, it's basically equipment protection and security because this is a new HVAC system, a significant investment. We want to make sure it's secure. So this fence is basically going to protect this for accidental damage, unauthorized access, vandalism, theft. I won't go into that, but the fire department would certainly explain more. They're literally right across the street from us. And these activities Each unit that sits outside has a lot of copper piping, a lot of electrical lines, gas pipings, stuff like that. We just want to make sure it stays nice and secure.

Board Member 1

All right, my questions. Okay, are you guys removing trees for this?

Applicant

Yes.

Board Member 1

All right. So, previously we had approved chain link fences for the stairways.

Applicant

Yeah, that was done probably about five years ago, I think, 4 or 5 years ago, we improved those.

Board Member 2

Well, 12 years.

Applicant

I'm not the handyman on the project.

Board Member 1

Yeah, I was here when we approved that, and I haven't been here for four.

Applicant

That was prior to

Board Member 1

I got you. Anyways, now this is sticking out quite a bit further out from the building, so this is going to be very visible from different angles on Bradford Street. Was there any consideration to use ornamental instead of chain link?

Applicant

So, funny you say that. Now I wasn't at that night with the fire department that had watched some pages. But basically what we did was we took an AI program, went in there, got a picture, and we had AI help us out with what it could look like with fencing and then some greenery around it. I do have a picture if you'd like to look.

Applicant

So, if you get near, ask him without a problem. But see, AI doesn't give us chain link. Look here, for some reason, they gave us ornamental fencing, as you can see.

Dawn Melson-Williams

So if you're going to group meet there, then we need to make sure we're recording that. So someone wants to hold a microphone in that area, and then be able to also include the chair.

Board Member 2

What is the dimension of the pad? And what is the what is the dimension of the additional structure? What is the exterior of the additional structure?

Applicant

All right. So the concrete itself, the pad itself is going to be from the building out, including the existing concrete. It's going to be 22 feet from the building out. From the where it says number 3 back, which is number 3 back, it's going to be 55 ft from there back to that brick wall.

Board Member 2

Is this Bradford Street back? These are crepe myrtles?

Applicant

Yes, correct. Crepe myrtles.

Board Member 2

How many feet beside, did you say? I'm sorry.

Applicant

All right. So, yeah, we're 55 ft from the from the front of this to the top of the screen. And then we're 22 ft from the building out to the new sidewalk.

Board Member 2

I really want to say aren't dimensions fun, but I won't. And what is going to be the sheathing of this structure here? Will will the interior of what you are building on that is sitting outside the church itself, will it be opaque or will people see copper wiring and all sorts of interesting things?

Applicant

Uh no. So that is that is where we're proposing to do the live greenery around the exterior of the fencing area, so you will not see any of the copper piping. You might see a little bit until the brush starts to grow up, the vines and stuff like that, whichever type of greenery you choose. Until that's grown up, people might see the equipment through the fence, but once it starts to grow, you won't see it.

Board Member 2

Do you have a photo or something to show what this what the thing looks like that you're building at 20 2x55 ft without without the fence and without

Board Member 1

Yeah, it's going to be wide percent standard black chain-link fence.

Dawn Melson-Williams

No, you're talking about the housing of the actual mechanical equipment. This is just a concrete pad, and the equipment unit sits on that pad. Is that correct?

Applicant

Correct. Yes.

Board Member 2

And what does that look like and what and what is what is the exterior and Well, I mean, you get right Talk about outdoor and an access by people.

Board Member 1

I think this would be five units, right? And the five units are going to stand what, probably about 3 and 1/2, 4 ft up?

Applicant

Uh so the the five units stand about 6 and 1/2 ft tall. That tall? Yeah. So they're they're pretty tall unit, which is why I wanted to go with 8 ft. However, it said to be processed on paperwork that I looked through, 6 ft is the maximum. So we were trying to go as high as we could to cover that up as much as possible to allow historically everything to stay nice and pretty in Dover itself. Um so they are about 6 and 1/2, 7 ft tall. They They're decent looking unit. We have a few other ones actually in the city already.

Board Member 1

Similar to Bradford, do you guess?

Applicant

Yes, we have one sitting over there or two sitting over there right now. They aren't fenced in. They're a little bit out of the area. They're nicer, buried than what this is. Um and they're house in a beautiful I have to drop in and look at mine, though. Yeah, I wouldn't recommend that either.

Applicant

Uh so the biggest thing is is that once we put these in, we just want to keep everything safe. The the fence will not cover everything up, but if we do the greenery around, it's going to give a nice visual here.

Board Member 1

Yeah, I just think that an ornamental fence is a lot more security than chain link. Because people can climb up over a chain link, and then go right into the

Applicant

Yeah, absolutely. And as I said, we're here to work with you folks, so if that's something that we need to look into, I don't mind

Applicant 2

If I can quickly add, so right here is the street where this will be visible. Um this this is Bradford here. From this side Oh, sorry. It's not. Oh, perfect.

Applicant 2

Perfect. So, we would like the fence here so that we can protect the equipment. However, another option would be to to cover the fences also to plant trees, arborvitae bushes, whatever the mission or to landscape along this route from the building out, which would completely hide the fence. That's another option.

Board Member 2

Would you be willing to put in a fence that's similar to what is just in a picket type of fence versus the chain link?

Applicant

I I do believe that's kind of what the AI uh depicted in the pictures that we had, and I don't see why not.

Board Member 2

I think that would help with the historic look because chain-link fences are, even though they're black, not pretty.

Applicant

Yes, ma'am. Absolutely.

Board Member 1

If we can, can we get those specifications on the fence that they intend to install so we can visually get an approval?

Board Member 2

And um the the excellence of the curving fence uh at 26 Bradford, which is sincerely admired, uh and that level of ship uh may not be necessarily uh uh common nowadays, but it's what we need to

Board Member 1

All right, does uh you have any other questions, Susan, John? Okay, thank you very much. Appreciate it. Like we said, if you can send us some specifications.

Applicant

All right, that's it? Thank you guys. Appreciate your time.

Board Member 1

Thank you. All right, comments?

Board Member 2

My only comment is Well, we approved a fence for the new West Street park, parking lot to go around their HVAC. And was that similar I I feel like that's very similar to what the fire department is putting in there, so that would be my recommendation.

Board Member 1

Yeah, I agree. Because originally they were going to do a chain-link fence on the back side of the uh parking garage. And that was visible from Bradford Street, and then we asked them to do ornamental. They switched it over to ornamental, and that's covered on that side. No, they yes, they definitely want to have it there. So that would be my preference.

Board Member 2

It is It's a small world.

Board Member 1

Well, it's a good example where we've had a similar situation in a situation where they're right. I mean, because this this is pretty big. I mean, this is what, 55 by 22, and each of the AC units are actually 6 ft tall. So if we if we're at 6 ft tall, then they're going to be as tall as the fence, like. However, if we ask that there be uh greenery installed, trees or shrubbery in front of it, we can ask for both, you know, to have that so ornamental plus uh shrubbery or covered in front.

Board Member 1

Instead of having it on the fence itself, having it in front of it.

Board Member 2

And if it's on the fence, they don't have to paint it every year.

Board Member 1

Bushes and arborvitae.

Board Member 2

There are a lot of invasive plants on Bradford Street that love to have some place more to go.

Board Member 1

I got you. All right, so any other comments or anything before we forward a motion here? I'm not telling everyone forward a motion, you know, we'll continue or that's up to you. Okay, I'll uh forward a motion that we approve

Board Member 1

I forward a motion that we approve HI-26- that's a conditional approval. Uh HI-26-04 uh with fence permit number 26-125046 South Bradford Street to modify the change the fencing from a chain link fence to a ornamental fence of 6 ft, and to install shrubbery or trees in order to cover a fence from view Bradford Bradford Street.

Board Member 1

Any other questions or anything?

Board Member 2

I'll second it.

Board Member 1

All in favor? Aye.

Dawn Melson-Williams

specific spec um for their fence, uh I believe the their ornamental fence as uh Mr. Bashista noted was a steel fence, uh which is probably a little different than an aluminum fence when it comes to probably pricing um for ornamental fencing, but uh those products are probably fairly standard in appearance, um so if you're if you're looking to make your plan, I think you you certainly have some options there. So.

Commission Chair

All right, let's move on to old business and the Certified Local Government Program.

Dawn Melson-Williams

Um so this is Dawn with the planning staff. Um I have no additional information um regarding uh Certified Local Government Program. We're a participating member, uh but no forward movement on any kind of um details on on on grant opportunities at at this point. Um so I don't have anything for you on that. And then moving into the implementation of the 20 uh 19 Comprehensive Plan,

Dawn Melson-Williams

I think I mentioned before that the city is a participating entity with the uh State Housing Authority uh related to land use and housing reform. Um stay tuned in September. Our the consultant team that's been working with the city um will be reporting out some information about what they're seeing as regulatory barriers in um in our current code, and

Dawn Melson-Williams

we are working towards planning a public outreach um type opportunity, so we will certainly um make you aware of that when it happens. Ultimately, this may lead to provision changes in our zoning ordinance. Um you do have some housing in the historic district of a variety of types, uh so it may be of interest to you to kind of participate as as those things move forward. Um

Dawn Melson-Williams

and the tornado warning, it was actually to the south of here, these housing. Just that's why everybody's phone was going off, so don't worry.

Dawn Melson-Williams

Uh so, Mr. Chair, the the next thing on your agenda is the public comment opportunity, um and that is the opportunity that we give um the members of the public uh to share with the Historic District Commission uh anything that's not specifically tied to a public hearing. Um The uh staff would note that there be the staff and one observer here in the room, uh and the only other participant that's joined us online is the uh is the fire chief, Chief Carey. Um so I don't know if either one of those individuals have any uh comments during that public comment opportunity. Um They're shaking no.

Dawn Melson-Williams

I'm not seeing anything from from the chief um at this point on that, so I believe that would conclude your business today.

Commission Chair

All right, thank you, Dawn. Can we get a motion to adjourn?

Commission Member

Wait. I have a question. Yeah, sorry about that. Go ahead. I don't know whether this wait wait this question comes after adjournment or before, but it's a question about next month's meeting is on the same day as the ribbon cutting for the Family Court, which I intend to attend, and that's at 2:30. Yes.

Dawn Melson-Williams

So staff is aware of that um ribbon cutting that day. We've also received the invite. Um we will have um applications for review at your September meeting. Uh so we are proposing to move the meeting time back to um 4:00.

Commission Member

Thank you.

Commission Chair

It's a very good question. Thank you for bringing that up. Thank you. Any other comments before we adjourn?

Commission Member

I move we adjourn.

Commission Member 2

Second.

Commission Chair

All in favor say aye.

Commission Member

Aye.

Commission Chair

All against? All right, have a good day.

Dawn Melson-Williams

All right, thank you for joining us. This concludes the Historic District Commission meeting for today.