Transcript: Code Board of Appeals

Roy Sudler, Jr.

Call to order the City of Dover, Delaware's Code Appeal, Code Board Appeals. The Chair will now entertain a motion for the adoption of the agenda.

Julia M. Pillsbury

Pillsbury moves to adopt the agenda.

Roy Sudler, Jr.

It's been It's been properly moved by Councilwoman Pillsbury to adopt the agenda, and properly seconded by Mr. Spain.

Roy Sudler, Jr.

Is there any discussion on the motion?

unknown

Yes.

Roy Sudler, Jr.

Is there any discussion on the motion?

Roy Sudler, Jr.

All those in favor, please state by saying aye.

Multiple Speakers

Aye. Aye.

Roy Sudler, Jr.

Those opposed, please state by saying nay.

Roy Sudler, Jr.

The motion has been adopted unanimously.

Roy Sudler, Jr.

Item number one, Dover code ordinance violation chapter 106, traffic and vehicle, article three, stopping, standing, and parking, division one, section 106-130, wrecked, non-operable non-operating, improperly parked, or improperly parked or equipped vehicle at 846 Monroe Terrace, Ms. Shelly Evans. Ms. Evans, how are you today?

Shelly Evans

I'm doing good, sir. How are you?

Roy Sudler, Jr.

I'm doing well. Can you hear quite well?

Shelly Evans

Excuse me?

Roy Sudler, Jr.

Yes?

Shelly Evans

I didn't hear you, I'm sorry.

Roy Sudler, Jr.

Okay, I'm sorry. Thank you.

Roy Sudler, Jr.

Okay, so we're going to first start with you in regards to why you feel though that why you are appealing the the violation. Violation.

Shelly Evans

Is that for me?

Roy Sudler, Jr.

Yes, ma'am. Why are you appealing the violation?

Shelly Evans

I'm appealing the violation under two grounds. One, the situation he is talking about, I spoke to him myself. My husband had major DVT surgery. He almost died. He had to be Medevaced to a trauma center. Because of that, he has got two scars down his legs, two wounds that go above his knee on both sides of his left leg. When he had the surgery done, he had complications. He was coming home from the surgery. He could not get out of the car, he could not walk far. He was technically supposed to be in a wheelchair, but because of our yard, you really can't get a wheelchair in there. So I literally just dropped pulled the car back to let him out of the car and pulled the car immediately in front of my truck, which sits in my driveway. The gentleman then proceeded to tell me he didn't care if my husband fell over in the road and got run over. It wasn't his problem. My car was there for five seconds to let someone out who has a handicap placard and could not walk that far. That was it. Number two, according to the violation, it was supposed to be a building violation. It's not a building violation. The gentleman has been going out of his way to ticket us for things he's not supposed to because, according to the restriction in my neighborhood, as of right now and when I purchased the property, it stated that my bobtail can sit in my driveway as long as it's not on the road. The gentleman has proceeded to tell me I am not allowed to park my bobtail in the driveway, and has proceeded to write me up numerous times for my bobtail to be in the driveway. This time he told me I'm not allowed to park my bobtail in the driveway. I did speak to the City of Dover manager. She stated that was incorrect. Yes, they were talking about possibly changing the law, but the law has not been changed. And because of that, he has gone out of his way to literally nail us all the time. Now here's the other problem. We're not the only ones, and we're not the only one seeing this. And whoever this guy is that they got last year, this gentleman I should say, has been making it a point of his because originally he kept saying I couldn't park my bobtail in my driveway, that was against the law. I spoke to the City of Dover manager, and she stated at the time, no, because yes, you cannot have something that carries over 2,000 lbs, which is not really being enforced in our neighborhood because there are several work vehicles that can carry more than that that are in the neighborhood. Unfortunately, my tractor does not carry. It can't carry a dozen eggs. It can only haul. The trailer hauls it, the weight, not my tractor. My tractor just hauls the trailer. And he went to the lawyer, and the lawyer said the same thing, and the City of Dover manager also stated the same thing, and when I bought the property, the City of Dover Police Department said the same thing as well as the City of Dover manager. But the big problem is my bobtail was home, my husband had just come home from surgery because he had had an abscess and he had a problem with his shunt came out. We had just brought him home, and he's telling me I cannot have someone handicapped dropped off to where they can safely get in the house. And that's a problem. And there was no written warning for this.

Roy Sudler, Jr.

Thank Thank you very much for explaining to us your synopsis of what transpired. We will now have code enforcement to read the ordinance or the code as it applies to this case, and then we'll have them comment on the violation. Code enforcement, you may begin.

Matthew Layfield

All right, so, um—

Roy Sudler, Jr.

I'm sorry, before you state, just state your name, I'm sorry. Please state your name for the record.

Matthew Layfield

I am Matthew Layfield. I'm code enforcement officer. I've been with the department for three years. I'm certified with the International Code Council. And so to give a little backstory on this, so as you know, on July 16, 9:30, I rode by and found her Honda was in the parked in the front yard, which is a violation for of parking in the grass, DCO section 106-130, parking in the grass. And this is her fourth offense. This is her fourth offense for parking in the grass and uh since December of '24. I issued so since it being her fourth offense, I issued her a citation for failure to maintain a known violation. So that that's a known violation. And the offenses that that she's been cited for parking in the grass where's in December of '24, she was wrote up for parking in the grass, May of '25, she was wrote up for parking in the grass, uh 12 of '25 she was she was wrote up for parking in the grass, and then again for in July of '26, she was wrote up for parking in the grass. So, this was four times and she was definitely notified because the first time was a door hanger, so she was given multiple notices about not parking in the grass.

Roy Sudler, Jr.

Does that conclude your statement? Yes, you may. Please state your name for the record.

Eddie Kopp

If I may, Eddie Kopp, Chief Code Enforcement Officer for the City of Dover. I know the appellant brought up some information regarding the bobtail, and looking at the case history, now I can confirm that the bobtail was not addressed by the Division of Code Enforcement. There is no active violation for the bobtail parked on the property, nor is there any pending action for the bobtail parked on the property. She is correct in stating that the ordinance has recently changed. Once the ordinance or once the new ordinance has been codified, there could be a potential issue with the bobtail being parked on the property, but for these proceedings today it is irrelevant to the case.

Roy Sudler, Jr.

Thank you, Eddie. For the record, can you please define bobtail?

Eddie Kopp

So, it is um the best way to explain it, it is a 18-wheeler, and it's just the hauling mechanism of it. So it's the motor vehicle aspect of the 18-wheeler, which would be a commercial vehicle, and it would meet the definition under the new ordinance that has not been codified correctly or has not been codified as of date, which is why it hasn't been addressed.

Unknown Speaker

Okay. You can read into the record.

Unknown Speaker

You can start with 2023.

Unknown Speaker

It's almost- that's not the easiest system.

Unknown Speaker

Well, in the meantime, I'll open up the chair will recognize committee members that have a question. I do believe it was Miss May, and then follow up with Miss Maule first. Okay. And then, we'll follow up with Maule.

Unknown Speaker

Well, well let me clarify that. I know um it states that if the violation is rectified within that 30-day period, that it doesn't go any further than the 30-day period. Am I correct?

Unknown Speaker

Correct, yes.

Unknown Speaker

So, you're saying that to the your 23, there was a violation, was that corrected?

Unknown Speaker

Yes, they were.

Unknown Speaker

24 was corrected?

Unknown Speaker

Yeah, all four were corrected.

Unknown Speaker

25 was corrected.

Unknown Speaker

It says, they correct them and then do it again. They correct it and then do it again before--

Unknown Speaker

Uh okay, but the thing is, is you're holding four violations, four separate violations, on one violation that did you time how long the vehicle or the Bobcat or whatever it the whatever was parked on the front, how long it took her to move it? Or how long, you know, were you there when she moved it, when she rectified it?

Unknown Speaker

So, I find it um That would be unreasonable to sit there and just time how long the car is there. You see what I mean? Well, I--

Unknown Speaker

I don't I don't find it Like with the other violations, yes, it's a equipment, or a vehicle that's you know, a business vehicle. But if you're trying to get someone into a house that may or may not have a handicap, and you're not sitting there the whole entire time, and her vehicle wasn't parked there for 30 days just to help this gentleman into the front door. I don't see why she would be cited for having the vehicle to get someone from a vehicle to there depending on the obstacles that are from one point to the other. Because per se, if she did park on the street and he can't go over the curb and falls over and injures himself that way, would you have any type of violation of "Oh, there was an obstruction from him getting from here to there, but you parked in front of someone else's property?"

Unknown Speaker

Well, the code doesn't state You see what I'm saying? Well, the code doesn't state whether they're there 5 seconds or they're there 30 days. It doesn't It it doesn't matter what the timeline is, it's still a violation. If they're parked there at all, then it's a violation.

Unknown Speaker

Okay. But if she did it not at nine- 9:00 what was it, 9:00 something, and she did it at 12:00, and you weren't there, do you see what I'm saying? If it's 5 to 10 minutes and it's not parked there, which technically, parking a vehicle is turning the vehicle off, having it in park. That's considered park. If she had it still started to where she was going to move the vehicle to where it needed to be, technically, it is not a parked vehicle. It is a running vehicle that can be moved in a matter of seconds or so.

Unknown Speaker

Can we pull the picture of the violation on the screen, please?

Unknown Speaker

Yes. Chair recognizes the Mr. Copp and instructs the clerk to, if you have these--

Unknown Speaker

So, I want to bring your attention to the top photo one here. Um, the vehicle that's parked that's unoccupied in front of the door. Now, uh in speaking because I reviewed this myself, and um I- my interpretation was the code was interpreted correctly. So, if you look, the doors right there in the center of the photo. If the Bobcat was not in this driveway, the vehicle could be parked correctly in the driveway, and this would not be a violation. In reviewing the case history, uh which I'm going to read into the record here very shortly, uh this is a repeated offense. So, one time, I understand. But this is an ongoing issue that's happening um in this with this particular property. Therefore, when reviewing the totality of the evidence, the code doesn't state there's a drop-off period. The code doesn't state um you have so much time to remove your vehicle. The code states no vehicle can park on the grass. My interpretation of the code is um Inspector Linkfield interpreted the code correctly. If there was a provision to where you could temporarily unload on the grass, it would be a different uh scenario. But unfortunately, the way the code is written now, and that's what we're here challenged to interpret: did we interpret the code correctly? Um, so I think the relevance of this is to review the code and did we actually interpret the code correctly? Uh, and- and take into consideration, there is no provision in the code that would allow uh any period of time to be parked on the grass. Uh, but if I may, I want to read into the record

Unknown Speaker

this is Ray Morris' case. And this is back on February 14th of 2023. The owner's name is Richard and Shelley Evans, 948 Marlboro Terrace: "Remove the vehicle from the grass and park only in approved parking surfaces. If the vehicle is non-operating or unregistered, it needs to be removed from the property." That was a cite- that was uh what the inspector cited uh Can I turn that? Can we turn this? Okay. For that statement there, is there anything um in- in the report that states that there was pretty much the same scenario here, where there was a vehicle already a 18-wheeler already in the parking area, or was it something? Cuz that was sort of, it's so specific to a vehicle and the grass, I can tell No, no, what I'm saying is, I I know the bit for the grass. What I'm saying, was the 18-wheeler, see how we have the picture now, back then was the 18-wheeler still in the dr- in right, in place?

Unknown Speaker

Yes. So um, So, I I think I think what he what the Chair's asking, I I think what he's asking Chair Doc is asking, in the other three in the four instances total was that uh tractor-trailer parked? So, I would say, in other two other incidents, that she's parking in the grass because of the Bobtail truck in the driveway. So, if it's amenable to the board, I can either testify to because I've reviewed the pictures, or if I would like to you want to pause for a recess, or I can-- Let's take Let's take a pause. and only for uh, the capacity reasons. Um, if we can take a pause, and if you can provide that, I think that would that will um sort of, show the pattern, and because if the if the vehicle's still going to be in there, there's you're still going to have the same scenario. However, my main concern in regards to reasonable accommodations for a handicap, how does how does that play into this? Um, if he's if there are something called, you know, reasonable accommodations for handicap, and I want to make sure that, you know, that we have considered that, seeing that it's a knee replacement. But, but, I mean, you know, four years consecutively or a couple of years is a little extensive. I don't know, maybe. So, if you can if you we'll take a recess. I can look Miss Evans, we're going to before we take a recess, let's we have a co- committee member that also wants to ask a question.

Shelley Evans

Yes, sir.

Unknown Speaker

Miss Evans, um and I'm sorry that you're for your husband's uh ailments. Can you hear me okay?

Shelley Evans

Yes, sir.

Unknown Speaker

All right. So, my question is, is that I just I took a picture cuz I had my new Pro Max 17 iPhone, so I I was just curious because my thought fellow colleague here had great questions. Is there any steps going into that front door? Cuz it looks like I zoomed in, and I don't see any of steps. It's straight in the door, correct?

Shelley Evans

It's straight in the door. That's why I have to get him there, because he cannot go up in an angle, because of his leg. He's permanently disabled because of the leg.

Unknown Speaker

Totally get it. I I And my next question is, hypothetically, if that truck was not there, I see how you're parallel straight up to the door. I get it. You open the door, and he goes right in. My question to you is, if the truck wasn't there, and you you drove straight in, the passenger side door is still right right there. My question is, with exception of without driving your two wheels onto the grass, my question is, wouldn't that achieve the same goal, if you just pull in, and you're just maybe an extra 5 5 ft--

Shelley Evans

No, sir.

Shelley Evans

No, sir.

Shelley Evans

It would not.

Unknown Speaker

It would not?

Shelley Evans

No, it would not, and that's what I explained to you when I spoke to you.

Shelley Evans

He cannot walk that far.

Shelley Evans

That's why I put him in front of the door. If you like to, you can speak to him right here. That's why he has a handicap placard.

Unknown Speaker

No, no. Miss Mrs. Evans, let let me rephrase that question.

Unknown Speaker

If you put your front of your bumper, it's going to be exactly the same length and and be flushed against your front door. With the exception of two--

Shelley Evans

No, sir. It is not the same distance. You're talking about an additional 5 to 7 ft. If I pull in, it's an additional 5 to 7 ft for him to get from that driveway to the door. That's what I've been explaining. And he can't walk that far. That's why he has a handicap placard. I have to drop him off in front of the door so that he only has to walk a couple of steps. He is technically supposed to be in a wheelchair.

Unknown Speaker

Appreciate your response. Thank you so much. I appreciate you being candid. Thank you so much.

Shelley Evans

Thank you.

Unknown Speaker

Um, I would also The Chair now recognizes uh Council President Neil. If you have any questions, sir, before we go to in for a recess for a minute. Do you have any questions, sir?

Unknown Speaker

Council President Neil, can you hear me?

Unknown Speaker

He's muted. There it goes.

Unknown Speaker

Mr. Neil?

Unknown Speaker

He may have stepped away and his mic's closed up, so--

Unknown Speaker

Okay. We'll go to a recess. We maybe just try to get reach Council President Neil, please. Give him a call, tell him that we're going to a recess, and--

Unknown Speaker

Do you want any pictures of the front--

Unknown Speaker

Silver.

Unknown Speaker

Miss Evans, can you hear us?

Shelley Evans

Yes, sir.

Unknown Speaker

Thank you for being patient and thank you um for waiting. We do have some information or some pictures that we'd like to add into the record. I believe that the the Clerk's office is going to share this on the screen. Hopefully, you can see it. Let me know if you could see it. We're currently in the process of sharing it on the screen. Just give us one brief moment.

Unknown Speaker

Oh. Nope, this isn't it.

Unknown Speaker

Hold on, let me--

Unknown Speaker

Let me open it first.

Unknown Speaker

Stop sharing.

Unknown Speaker

There it is. Share.

Unknown Speaker

It's not working. Okay. Here we go. Okay.

Unknown Speaker

All right, it's working.

Unknown Speaker

Everybody ready? Yep.

Unknown Speaker

Okay. So, now Madam Madam Clerk Willer will explain to us exactly what you're looking at. Can you, Miss Evans, can you see what's on the screen, ma'am?

Shelley Evans

Uh yes, part- somewhat, yes.

Unknown Speaker

Okay. Okay, Madam Madam Clerk Willer.

Unknown Speaker

Um, these are um citation letters back from uh 2023 with pictures, and--

Unknown Speaker

Can you go back to the picture, please? Yeah.

Unknown Speaker

Okay. Let's stay right there.

Unknown Speaker

Miss Willer. I mean, Miss Evans. Miss Evans.

Shelley Evans

Yes, I'm right here.

Unknown Speaker

Thank you. Do you happen to have any information in regards to or a letter from your doctor specifying that, you know, your husband's going to need some type of accommodation?

Shelley Evans

I have a handicap placard for him. Um, I apologize, somebody's driving crazy in my neighborhood. Um, but as far as Do we have letters on hand? No.

Shelley Evans

I did not think to get a letter stating this at this time. I apologize. I did not I can get hold of Christiana and get a letter, but I do not have one on hand. I have a handicap placard that is good for 8 years that he has through the surgery. I do have I'll show you one thing, though. I don't know if it'll help matters any.

Unknown Speaker

Okay. When did he receive this handicap placard, please?

Shelley Evans

Excuse me?

Unknown Speaker

What When was the handicap placard initiated?

Evans

It was initiated last year.

Julia M. Pillsbury

Just a year ago.

Evans

It was initiated last year.

Julia M. Pillsbury

2025.

Evans

Just so you can see.

Evans

I'm trying to figure out how to turn my screen. I apologize.

Evans

Um, you know how to turn the

Evans

Oh, swap camera.

Evans

Okay. This is the equipment he uses.

Evans

Just so you can see. This goes down his whole leg.

Evans

Just so you can be aware, in this machine.

Evans

And as you can see, it's got the long wires and everything with it. Just just so you know.

Evans

Um his handicap placard is right here.

Evans

'33 that expires.

Julia M. Pillsbury

7/15/25.

Julia M. Pillsbury

When did he have his surgery? This is Dr. Pillsbury again.

Evans

He had the surgery in May of last year. The first surgery.

Evans

June in oh, in Ohio?

Evans

Okay. In June of last year. I apologize. He remembered better than I did.

Evans

Uh, June of last year was when he had his first surgery, and that was at a trauma center in Dayton, Ohio. He was medevaced in.

Evans

I do have some of the paperwork on that.

Evans

Um, but he's been pretty much in a wheelchair. He cannot walk. He's not supposed to be walking.

Evans

Um, and that's the biggest problem we have, is we have to get it we have to get him as close to the door as possible to get him in, and unfortunately, he cannot go unbalanced.

Evans

If you could see our driveway, as you can see, it is sloped,

Evans

and that's a big problem for him because he is very unbalanced.

Roy Sudler, Jr.

Quick quick question.

Evans

Excuse me?

Roy Sudler, Jr.

This is this is Chairman Sudler. Uh, quick question for you.

Roy Sudler, Jr.

How long do you plan on parking uh not being in compliance?

Evans

Sir, I moved that car 5 minutes after he came in the house.

Evans

That car gets parked in front of my bobtail every time I'm home.

Evans

It stays there.

Evans

That's why you haven't had a ticket on me, because I know you go by on a regular basis, and that's fine, because you have to do your job.

Evans

But that car sits, and I know you've seen it, in front of that bobtail when I'm home.

Evans

It parks fits right in my driveway.

Evans

It does not block the sidewalk,

Evans

and it sits there.

Evans

And when I come home, I do it, but when he has to go to the doctor's office, he doesn't leave the house often, but when he does, I have to do it.

Roy Sudler, Jr.

Thank you, Ms. Evans. I totally understand. The chair now recognizes again, Dr. Pillsbury, Councilwoman Pillsbury.

Julia M. Pillsbury

Thank you. Um this is Dr. Pillsbury. How do you anticipate your husband being able to drive the bobtail again, or do you drive it?

Evans

Yes, ma'am. I'm a licensed CDL holder.

Julia M. Pillsbury

So has it been driven in the last year?

Evans

Yes, ma'am. I drove it.

Julia M. Pillsbury

Okay. I just So who stays home with your husband when you're on the road?

Evans

I have three children.

Julia M. Pillsbury

Okay.

Evans

And my brother comes and helps him as well.

Julia M. Pillsbury

Okay. So your bobtail is still being actively used?

Evans

Yes, ma'am. In fact, it's I just I It goes My bobtail is normally gone 3 to 4 weeks out of the month.

Julia M. Pillsbury

Okay.

Evans

I am only home 3 to 4 days.

Julia M. Pillsbury

Okay, thank you.

Evans

You're welcome.

Roy Sudler, Jr.

The chair recognizes committee member.

Steve Lewis

This is Steve Lewis again. Thank And I appreciate your patience, Ms. uh Thank you so much, Ms. Evans. Excuse me.

Steve Lewis

My My question is, I wonder if this our system clerk could Could you pull her original letter that she appealed, or she requested to appeal, where she kind of illustrates some complaints and some

Steve Lewis

The That's it right there. Yeah.

Steve Lewis

Because I My printer didn't print it.

Steve Lewis

Can you enlarge that or

Steve Lewis

Ms. Evans, you see that in there? You see that in front of you?

Evans

Yes, sir, I also see where I stated to you, and this is correct, that you had not given me a previous warning, and that you turned around and gave me an immediate $100 fine.

Evans

I also remember this conversation very well with you because I'm the one who contacted you, and you stated to me that I was not allowed to have my bobtail in the driveway, that it was against code.

Evans

And I explained to you that you used the code wording, that my bobtail carried over 2,000 lb.

Evans

And that's where I explained to you, "No, sir, that's not true. I haul for I haul over for I haul 40,000 lb, but I can't carry a dozen eggs."

Steve Lewis

Now and I have just one more question, and I can't I thank you very much.

Steve Lewis

In the past incidences where you parked your car I have a picture here where you parked your car, the bobcat is not in there, and, hopefully, you'll see that,

Steve Lewis

my question is, what was your purpose of parking your car on the grass to the left of your house, to the left of the driveway?

Evans

That, sir, was our fault. I'm not denying that one. That was when I was getting my bobtail out. My daughter was was was going to move the car back in the driveway.

Evans

Unfortunately, she could not see well, so she was waiting for daylight. And so, because of that, you came the whoever came through came through and caught her before she could put it back in.

Evans

It was in the yard for, I believe, like, an hour or so.

Evans

Um, she turned around, and she stated she apologized for it, and we turned around and said that that's fine.

Evans

The only problem we had with that that that violation was when you told me flat out that, uh, my bobtail wasn't allowed in my driveway.

Evans

And I told you We had the conversation. You then told me, it was like, um Just like when I had just had this one violation, when you told me you don't have a boss, and nobody can tell you what to do, you can do whatever you want.

Evans

So I went again to the city of Dover. I spoke to whoever was in office at that time and explained the situation, and they stated to me, yes, they would contact the lawyers and that, yes, my bobtail was legal to be there.

Steve Lewis

Okay. Well, thank you so much for the uh being very candid in the explanation.

Evans

Well, I would like Can I mention one thing?

Evans

Am I allowed to say something?

Roy Sudler, Jr.

Absolutely. Yes, Ms. Evans.

Eddie Kopp

Yes, ma'am.

Evans

I have a problem with the fact that I have been told more than once by Mr. Kopp that he can do whatever he wants and it doesn't matter what the situation is.

Evans

That is not the way you handle something. You also should not handle something where you tell somebody it doesn't matter if he falls in the road and gets run over, he doesn't care.

Evans

As far as I'm concerned, everybody should care,

Evans

not because it pertains to me, because that's the human thing to do.

Evans

And I am very offended that twice now, I have been told he can do whatever he wants, he does not have a boss, and he will continue to do it.

Roy Sudler, Jr.

Thank you, ma'am. Is there anything else you'd like to share with us before we ready to conclude uh this

Evans

No, sir.

Roy Sudler, Jr.

Thank you so much. Uh the chair recognizes Mr. Kopp. Mr. Kopp state your name for the record.

Eddie Kopp

Um Eddie Kopp, Chief Code Enforcement Officer with the City of Dover.

Eddie Kopp

I just want to put on the record my my side of the story.

Eddie Kopp

Um this phone conversation I had with Ms. Evans was witnessed by uh several members of my staff, Sarah Brown, Matthew Layfield, and Thomas Miller. Uh the phone conversation took place on speakerphone.

Eddie Kopp

Uh the reason why the uh conversation was put on speakerphone is because Ms. Evans was very, uh, irate on the phone, and whenever we have situations like this, we do put on speakerphone so there's other witnesses to the call.

Eddie Kopp

Um on there, she advised she was going to call the governor um to have my job. I told her I do not answer to the governor, and maybe that's where this misconception is coming in between with me not having a boss.

Eddie Kopp

I did give her the right to appeal. I did advise her that where I believe the interpretation of Mr. Layfield's uh, his interpretation of the code was correct. Therefore,

Eddie Kopp

I did not have the authority to override the code. I did advise her if she disagreed with my mine or Mr. Layfield's interpretation, she could appeal to Council Code Board of Appeals,

Eddie Kopp

which she said that she was not going to do that, she was going to call the mayor and the city manager,

Eddie Kopp

um which I advised her that this code had to be appealed to the board, that there is nowhere in code to where the city manager or mayor could override the city ordinance,

Eddie Kopp

that had to be heard before the board.

Eddie Kopp

Um, I then transferred the call to the city clerk's office for them to take her appeal.

Eddie Kopp

So, just to go over, because I feel like this case has gone a lot, I just want to explain, uh, on behalf of code enforcement, and in my this capacity,

Eddie Kopp

before you today is an interpretation of a code. Did Mr. Layfield and myself interpret this code correctly?

Eddie Kopp

Um the relevance of this is, did we interpret the code correctly? So, before you today, uh

Eddie Kopp

we have the code. Was this code interpreted correctly? Did we do our due diligence with this case?

Eddie Kopp

And I believe we did. So on behalf of code enforcement, I will recommend the appeal be denied. And that's

Eddie Kopp

that's on our behalf, because I feel like we've gone through the evidence, the totality of the evidence. And I believe the code was interpreted correctly, however, it is the discretion of this board.

Roy Sudler, Jr.

The chair will entertain

Roy Sudler, Jr.

two more questions, and then we're going to call to see what the pleasure of the committee is.

Roy Sudler, Jr.

Council President Neil, do you have do you have any question?

Fred A. Neil

I have a suggestion, if I can.

Fred A. Neil

Uh is it possible that she can gain an uh variance and to actually create a pad uh that links to the driveway to permit her to do this?

Fred A. Neil

Uh I'm very very sensitive, basically, on the fact that my wife has undergone uh uh hip replacement uh uh hip replacement surgery,

Fred A. Neil

and basically it it is a problem. But the problem is is is that if if we permit people to do the same thing against the code,

Fred A. Neil

then you don't have a code. It doesn't exist.

Fred A. Neil

So I think there needs to be a variance, that she has to take uh the the action to ask for the uh uh a pad that she could extend that uh area and remove it from a code violation.

Fred A. Neil

Uh otherwise, uh it it's still going to be a code violation each and every time she she does it. And if that car remains in that spot,

Fred A. Neil

uh unless it gets moved and parked out into the street,

Fred A. Neil

uh otherwise, it's still a violation.

Fred A. Neil

So my suggestion would be for her to see whether we can get a variance for her, or that we can build a pad, and stop basically what's going to be a continual uh problem for her and for the city.

Fred A. Neil

I yield.

Roy Sudler, Jr.

Thank you, the chair Thank you, Council President. The chair recognizes

Roy Sudler, Jr.

Miss Maine, and then we're going to wrap.

Holinda Maine

Hi, Holinda Maine, resident of Dover.

Holinda Maine

Um I really don't like the terminology of of of how you perceive the code because we all have our own perception

Holinda Maine

of the code. And just because you and you agree that's a perception of the code, not saying it's wrong, but that's your perception.

Holinda Maine

But her perception might be, okay, it's not a wrecked vehicle, it's not this, it's not that, and it's only for a few minutes, not, you know,

Holinda Maine

days.

Holinda Maine

So each person has their own perception of what the ordinance says. I literally read a little too much into it to go, "Okay, it should imply,

Holinda Maine

you know, if we write up and it's on there multiple days within that, and you're not rectifying it just cause you're moving it off and putting it back on,

Holinda Maine

ride by there again if you have the minutes. Minutes, if it's still there, okay, now, you're definitely in violation because now

Holinda Maine

you're within that 30-day period to go, 'Okay. Violation, violation.' You can't rectify something if it's done once,

Holinda Maine

and then the next year, she does it again once, and you every time you see a violation, don't go, "Oh, I'm going to let them go on this one."

Holinda Maine

Okay. Each violation, just so consistency, so that we can say,

Holinda Maine

"Okay. Your perception is my perception that says it has not been rectified cuz it's a continual thing."

Holinda Maine

And also I also agree with uh President Neil with,

Holinda Maine

you know, at this particular time it might not been the other three times that this happened, but

Holinda Maine

it it's it's kind of showing that this time, you weren't there to time it. You weren't, you know, I mean you can't be there to time it.

Ms. Mane

In a manner of speaking, she probably did rectify that, but still got a fine, which if you went back say the next day and it was parked there, then here it would be a separate violation within the 30-day period. Because every letter, and I've read every single letter that we construct here, on the bottom it says each offense is treated separately with a different fine, if you see what I'm saying. Like perception is, that's not perception, that's words on paper with a signature saying that we all agree that each fine or each offense or violation is held separately. So just because it's a repeating offense, it's not really repeated to where she's not rectifying something. She's rectifying it literally an hour, 2 hours, 3 hours afterwards. So that technically would count for that violation to be in accordance unless of course you ride back there within that 30 days and find that vehicle in the same spot, on the grass, in the backyard, somewhere. That would be a a reciprocal violation of okay, we told you the first time, we told you the second time, we told you the third time. I mean, my three-year-old has to be told 10 times to, you know, clean up her toys. That's a repeated offense because I have to tell her 10 times in that hour to clean it up, not 10 times in four separate years. In a manner of speaking, that's how I interpret it because if a violation is rectified in 30 days or 60 days, then it automatically at that point, you go back the 60th day and go, "Okay, the vehicle has the vehicle's not there." It it automatically closes that case. Then, okay, the next month starts another 30 days. But my point is, is you're both reading it and going, "Okay, we both agree on this. This is what it says, this is how we're interpreting it." But I'm not interpreting it that way. Mr. Sudler might not be interpreting it that way. Dr. Pillsbury might have her way of interpreting it. We need to to get together here and and interpret to where everybody there is no getting out of or trying to work around. It's either you violate it, you get a fine. Thank you. I yield.

Eddie Kopp

Mr. Chairman, as an uh Mr. Kopp, could I respond to uh Ms. Mane and then Councilman Neil? So, Code Enforcement doesn't have perception. We have interpretation. Um by code, as code officials, our duty is to interpret and enforce the code as it's written. So part of our job description is to interpret and enforce the code. It's it's not perception. It's it's how we interpret the code. And when we look at interpretations, we look at each other with our knowledge, our certification, and our training to be able to make these interpretations. So uh just want to clarify that. Uh as far as Mr. Neil, he mentioned variance. Um just for clarity purposes, a variance is in reference to the zoning ordinance. So if you wanted to do a variance, it would be in reference to the zoning ordinance. This uh this here we're talking about Dover code of ordinances, therefore a variance wouldn't relate to this. Uh so there is an option to apply for a permit. There's no guarantee the permit would be approved, nor could this board force an approval of a permit. They could go through the process um to extend the driveway. Keep in mind whenever you're extending a driveway, there's several things that go into factor outside of the planning inspections that does require uh approval from Public Works and Wastewater and Zoning. Uh the reason for it is to make sure is the lot coverage there, is there utilities underneath there. You know, there's several different things that go in there. So although that's an option to apply for a permit, there's no guarantee that the permit would be approved. Um so and uh if the board was wanted to change this ordinance in any way, the process would be to submit it to council committee for for amendment. Uh but I just want to caution caution all the board members here that this is interpretation of the code and we cannot change or modify code uh at this level, so. Other than that, I uh I yield.

Roy Sudler, Jr.

Thank you, um, Mr. Kopp. There is one thing that can be done. Um you're right, not at this level, but City Council can waive. City Council has the ultimate say um in a situation where City Council could hear it and waive it due to certain circumstances. Uh that would be the final final say. Nevertheless, that we have these boards uh for these types of situations. But when, in my view, when it's some ambiguity in the code, that's why I believe that we should get a legal opinion um at this juncture. I believe a legal opinion would be at best because there are compelling uh arguments on both sides, uh Dr. Pillsbury, code enforcement, um ADA. I I can't make a decision to say today without knowing how does the Americans with Disability Act look, how they view this. I don't want to put the city in legal harm's way. It's nothing that no fault of anyone. It's just a situation that we have to uh make sure it's fair. Um so as you know at this moment, um I think I'm going to make a judgment call as the chair. And and how should we do this, Dr. Pillsbury? Should we should we come back to this after a legal opinion and they give a motion to legal opinion and see how ADA is is uh viewed this? I mean you're that's your feel of expertise, yours fundamental mine fundamental. But um I think would you be in agreement with that?

Julia M. Pillsbury

I I do. I think that you're going to run into this type of problem again if you haven't in the past. And so the ADA is really strict. And so I think having a legal opinion makes sense and it gives everybody good guidance about where we can flex the law, where we should stick to the code, um and I think it's very reasonable.

Roy Sudler, Jr.

Okay. Okay. So, at at this juncture, Ms. Evans? Can you hear me, Ms. Evans?

Ms. Evans

Yes, sir.

Roy Sudler, Jr.

We are we're going to, how would be the proper way to say it, we're going to we're going to put this on pause so we can get a legal opinion in regards to your situation, how does the Americans with Disability Act view your case so that we can make sure it's it's fair all the way around and everyone will learn from this uh from this case, regardless whether it's favorable favorable for you or favorable for the city. This is a learning process, and we're just trying to make sure that our city is fair and that we, you know, administer uh the code and the laws evenly and fairly. Is that okay with you?

Ms. Evans

Yes, sir. I think that's the fair way to handle this.

Roy Sudler, Jr.

Okay. I'm glad to hear that you're in agreement that that's a fair way to handle it. So what we're going to do is we're going to adjourn the meeting, but we're going to um reschedule for another date after we receive some more information in regards to how the the Americans Disability Act view uh this case uh in conjunction to our ordinance and and and then go from there. Are you in agreement?

Ms. Evans

Yes, sir, I am. Will I be notified will I be notified of the next hearing that I have to attend?

Roy Sudler, Jr.

Yes, we will properly notify you. And I would say within 30 days minimum, at the max 60 days, 45 to 60 days, and we will we will reconvene and reschedule this. Okay?

Ms. Evans

Yes, sir.

Roy Sudler, Jr.

And we thank you for your time. Uh before before before we before we do that, um we're going to we're going to do a motion. Thanks to Mr. Kopp reminding me in my older age. Uh thank Okay, so the chair would entertain a motion to adjourn the meeting and reconvene after a legal opinion and a review of the Americans with Disability Act and how uh they review this case.

Julia M. Pillsbury

Do we want to limit it to this case or do we want to limit it to do we want it to be broader and have it look at our policy? Or our code, I'm sorry.

Eddie Kopp

Well, at this at this juncture, Yeah, for this, it could only be um this case. If you want to take further action as a body of council, you could, but for this specific case, it's the only thing that could be heard today.

Julia M. Pillsbury

Okay. I just wanted to make sure since we sort of discussed the case, but we also discussed it in a broader context.

Roy Sudler, Jr.

Yes, yes. Through through the case, we've seen the means that it'd be more beneficial for all, and that's why we're going to have that workshop. Okay? Um the chair will entertain a motion.

Fred A. Neil

Yeah, I uh make a motion so we can postpone until uh we hear uh an articulation from City Council or Solicitor or whoever.

Roy Sudler, Jr.

Okay. It's been properly moved to postpone the meeting and adjourn until we have uh a legal opinion or legal advice in regards to this case and how ADA, Americans Disabilities Act um reviews, yes, conforms, yes, how it conforms with the with with this uh case and how it impacts this case. Uh is there a second? It's been properly second co-seconded by Dr. Pillsbury and Ms. Mane. Is there any discussion on the motion? Okay, I'd just like to say for the record, for discussion that um I think all parties have represented each other well. Uh I think we're going to learn from this, it's going to do nothing but make the city better, and if we have to make adjustments, we'll make adjustments uh regardless for favorable for whatever party. But um Ms. Evans, we are just trying to make sure that our city is safe and everyone is aligned with our ordinances, okay?

Ms. Evans

Yes, sir, we're fine with that. We understand.

Roy Sudler, Jr.

All right. So um hearing no further discussion, all those in favor, please state by saying aye. Those opposed, please state by saying nay. The motion has been adopted unanimously. Uh the chair will now accept a motion to adjourn.

Julia M. Pillsbury

So moved.

Roy Sudler, Jr.

It's been properly it's been properly moved by Councilwoman Pillsbury to adjourn. It's been properly seconded by Councilwoman uh Ms. Mane. Any discussion on the motion? Hearing none, all in favor state by saying aye. Aye. Thank you very much, Ms. Evans. We will get back to