Transcript: Council Committee of the Whole

Fred A. Neil

I will now call to order the Council Committee of the Whole meeting of Tuesday, October 27th, 2026. And I would remind the public that public comments are welcome on any item and will be permitted at the appropriate time. You have before you this evening's agenda, and I'll entertain a motion for its adoption.

Tricia K. Arndt

Move to adopt the agenda.

Andre M. Boggerty

Boggerty seconds.

Fred A. Neil

It's moved and seconded. Any discussion? All in favor, please say aye.

Council Members

Aye.

Fred A. Neil

Seeing none, all those uh uh I recognize the chairman, Andre Boggerty, to conduct the business of the Safety Advisory and Transportation Committee. The floor is yours, sir.

Andre M. Boggerty

Good uh good evening, everyone. Thank you, council president. Um, I I move to call the uh Safety Advisory and Transportation Committee in order. I move for adoption of the agenda.

Gerald L. Rocha, Sr.

Move to adopt the agenda for the uh Safety Advisory Transportation Committee.

Unknown Speaker

Seconded, Mr. Chair.

Andre M. Boggerty

It's been properly moved and seconded. Are you ready for the question? All those in favor, signify by saying aye.

Council Members

Aye.

Andre M. Boggerty

By consent, the motion carries. Um, first, I want to a little privilege. I want to welcome, obviously, um Dr. Jackson, thank you so much for your continued uh support of the committee. She's here with us. But I also want to take the time to introduce our newest member of our committee who's joining us online, and that is um Miss Christine Kemp. Um she would have been here before, but thank God that uh she had a a little incident, but um now she's back and joining us. Um we're praying that all is well. Uh Miss Kemp, would you like to just say hello to everyone?

Christine Kemp

We're not at our house. And tonight, of course, is the inspection that was arranged by our insurance company to get us back into our house. So, um thankfully, I am allowed to join virtually, and I'm happy to be here.

Andre M. Boggerty

Thank you, and more importantly, we're glad you are safe and we have been in contact with Well, I didn't want to be a bother to you, but I'm glad you and your family are safe and all things are working out well. All right? Um the first uh order of business is um the priority- prioritization of the City of Dover State Capital Transportation Fund, um that is the CPT projects. I'd like to call, I recognize Miss, our city manager, Sharon Duca, and and and et al., if anybody else is with you.

Sharon Duca

Good evening. Sharon Duca, city manager. Um I do have Jason Lyon here with me if there are certain questions that we need answered during afterwards. Um, but basically, the capital transportation program projects are developed every year and prioritized by the City of Dover for submission to DelDOT and the Kent County MPO. Um we continue to organize them by category classification and then prioritize them within those classifications. Uh overall, there's 13 projects. Uh three are economic development related, four are safety and capacity projects, and six are transportation system improvements. Um following approval by the committee and council, the 2027 transportation priorities will be sent to the Secretary of Transportation at DelDOT and the Dover/Kent County Metropolitan Planning Organization for consideration and ranking for funding.

Sharon Duca

So, our projects include economic development priorities, as I mentioned, which include the Garrison Connector, um, uh, business-to-business connector, North Little Creek Road to Horsepond Road, and Horsepond to Lafferty Lane and Starlifter, and Lockerman Street and Forest Avenue intersection improvements. Our safety and capacity improvement priorities include College Road from Kenton Road to McKee Road, uh sidewalks within the walk walk zone of Dover High School, our US 13 sidewalk construction and related improvements, McKee Road/Salisbury Road study. Our transportation improvement priorities include Kings Highway/White Oak Road/Route 13 intersection, sidewalk improvements to North State Street from Division to Walker Road, downtown strategic plan improvements, and Bay Road pedestrian improvements and landscaping. We also have, um, development regulations that are being looked at in relation to freight issues, as well as our local streets that we must maintain. So, if there are any specific questions regarding any of this these projects, I can certainly have Jason come up, and we can try to answer them the best we can.

Andre M. Boggerty

Yes, thank you. Thank you for that. And um, I'll recognize those. I have uh just one or two minor, well, not minor questions. Uh our infrastructure is growing. Uh of course, where I live, they finally opened up the Kenton Road, and out of habit, I continue to make the turn of the detour. I just haven't just hadn't grown on me that it's open. But I'm also noticing that even within the in those nice traffic circles, they look really nice. Um however, we are seeing an increase of of 18-wheelers in those areas. Even though they've widened it in the traffic circles, what are we are these new projects are are are they going to detour some of those 18-wheelers from coming into, you know, some of those more residential areas? And/or are they going to Is is Are they going to be able to sustain I know that's one of my colleagues' biggest um questions usually, um um Dr. Sudler, about the containing the infrastructure, the roads, with the with the 18-wheelers um coming through uh various parts of the city. Are are they are they going to are are they going to hold up, I guess is my question?

Sharon Duca

Well, we can certainly get clarification on the uh road construction guidelines that they use to implement the Kenton Road improvements. Um but we do have certain truck routes through the city that we had discussed a number of years ago. Um so, I think it would probably be best if we're seeing a lot of uh 18-wheelers on Kenton Road and the like uh that we reach out to DelDOT uh and make verify what their plans are related to the project.

Andre M. Boggerty

Yeah. Because um that the uh what's the road by Willis Ford that takes you almost from for from Route 8 across into as if you were going to Schutte Park, that little stretch of road by Wawa? That sign is always torn down the through that traffic circle. So, I just wanted to make sure that the work that we're doing is is withstanding the uh to be able to withstand the increased traffic. We're grateful. That means if 18-wheelers are moving, that means our city is moving and things are moving and business is happening. But, um, you know, tear- we I just want to make sure we're we're we're not going to be tearing up those roads in the future um um just by the mere amount of traffic coming through them. Um so, any other questions? I think Councilman Anderson had a question.

David L. Anderson

Uh thank you. Thank you very much, Chairman. I I think that the truck routes, I I hope that it is looked at because that's a uh that's the concern.

David L. Anderson

Um, I have a uh a question about First of all, I wanted to say thank you all. It's uh I was reading through through that uh report, and I think it's very well done.

David L. Anderson

Um, I did have a minor suggestion, and uh while it's uh definitely should stay and it's important uh an economic route with the uh additional Garrison uh entrance, um is it is also uh we may also be able to pitch a little that it is a safety issue as well, because uh there's all the people coming in. The there's trucks going up and down Acorn Lane, speaking of another uh road that's a that was never intended for that. It's just a little residential road. And and the more we we're successful we are uh if we particularly if we get the up to a billion dollars build-out at Garrison as these uh as the build-out starts occurring,

David L. Anderson

uh the more successful we are, the more traffic. And, quite frankly, uh you know, there's driveways that that just coming out uh in a lot of it onto that road. I mean, it it's it was never intended for that, and it's not designed. Um and that's uh faster they they get this happening, the better it is, because it's a it's a real safety issue. We've we've seen it. Every- I think we've all seen it, and we've even had people um come here and uh and testify to it. Their concerns and their concerns are are legitimate. And and that that just may be uh another way to spark it because that that's not uh you know, it it's something that's uh theoretical, it's a very real daily concern. And right now, it it has to be that way, but uh that bypass is desperately needed. Thank you for all the work that that the you all are doing, the whole team is doing on this. I yield, Mr. Chairman.

Andre M. Boggerty

Thank you. The chair recognizes Councilman Lewis.

Brian E. Lewis

Ms. Duca, um one of the concerns in my district, the second district, that has been fermenting for many years now is South Little Creek Road. Um with trucks coming through, um it's become a safety issue, because a lot of trucks are, I guess, coming off um Route 1, they're bypassing North Little Creek Road, they're going in the back there, making a right, they're coming down South Little Creek to get to 13 or across the city. And you have the East Dover Elementary School there. Morning, uh they have an odd situation where um they have the parents park right on the side of South Little Creek Road. I wait, I guess waiting to go in to drop their kid off through the circle.

Brian E. Lewis

So, it narrows the road with the parents being parked there to drop their kids off. Then you have these big tractor-trailers coming down South Little Creek Road. And this is again something that has been complained to me repeatedly by my constituents over there. Uh with this initiative, um what's being done, or is there anything that can be done?

Sharon Duca

I think the best move would be to add that on to our discussion with DelDOT, on including the west side of town with the truck routes. Um they did recently do some improvement down there on South Little Creek Road, so we would need to find out more of the um DelDOT's plans for that area in order to try to address that.

Brian E. Lewis

The only improvement that they did this past summer was repave the road. They didn't widen it.

Sharon Duca

Right, so that may be the extent of what they're looking at right now, so we have to find out what their overall plan is for that road.

Brian E. Lewis

All right, understood. If you could uh kind of look into that, because like I said, this has been fermenting for a while now and it's been addressed as a safety issue because of East Dover Elementary School there, and particular in the morning, because that's when these trucks come traveling down.

Sharon Duca

Okay. Chair, uh Jason would like to add something to that, if that's fine.

Jason Lyon

Uh good evening, team. Uh Jason Lyon, assistant city manager. Um, so, DelDOT is in the middle of doing a uh a study and a design to improve South Little Creek Road, which includes pedestrian improvements, um road safety improvements, and the the pursuit of getting a lower speed limit. So, that project is underway. Uh the projects that are proposed here will, hopefully, uh decrease the truck traffic on those roads when we have those connector roads going up and down the north-south corridor to the Garrison Oak Technology Park. So, I just wanted to add that for some context. Thank you.

Brian E. Lewis

So So, what's um, as far as the time constraints on that, uh so I can go back and tell my constituents in the second district that live over in Schoolview, Stoney Creek, and uh the other areas?

Jason Lyon

Good question. Um, so they're they're in what's called PS&E right now is plans, surveying, and engineering. Um, so I can reach out to get a better timeline, uh, because I don't want to tell you something right now that's inaccurate. So, I'll make that a list and get that back to the team.

Roy Sudler, Jr.

How we sort of advocated for College Road to be um, expedited in the process, but I believe Councilman Hosfelt at that time, um, his daughter had got to a really bad accident, and it wasn't just because of his daughter getting accident, but it sort of, um, helped us to to to see the need even further than what we than what we saw, you know, and so um, I think that's been some time, right? Councilman Rocha, um, and I think were you, I think you were on the board then, too, on Council then, too, and Anderson. So, um, I do believe that College Road needs to get the, uh, attention. And so please continue to advocate for College Road, especially with, you know, the students and the mobile, um, units that they use, transportation units that they use, becoming more trendy. So, uh, that's all I have. But thank you very much for your your report and update. I yield. Thank you.

Andre M. Boggerty

Thank you. Anybody else?

Speaker

And the last statement, um, speaking of those roads and even over in and on that side, uh, it seems like we're expanding the roads, and while it while it's made while it's a great thing, now we have and and and please know I'm an advocate for those in the trucking industry, but they park there now. So because we made the roads wider, like we have a truck truck that I think that's College Road as we get ready to turn on Kenton Road that parks right before the merge lane. Um, and it's kind of hard to see, and/or if somebody's walking, you know, it it becomes a blind spot for them as well. Um, so if we could consider, uh, asking, um, what are the plans, I know we don't want any idling idling of 18 wheelers in in certain areas, but we have our constituents who drive 18 wheelers. We have a 18 wheeler school right here in Um, um, and we appreciate that, but somehow we need a plan where where individuals can park their trucks safely with no idling, of course. Um, so I don't know if that's the city or or we take that to the county because, um, it's becoming of an issue. I think is that did I miss it at the 50 point? Oh no, is it it was at

Sharon Duca

The uh development uh regulations freight issues involve includes what you're mentioning there.

Speaker

Yeah.

Andre M. Boggerty

Thank you. Uh, so yeah the freight issues. So just to know we just want to make sure that it's that. Thank you. I must have missed that. Outside of that, uh, anyone, um, Ms. Kemp, is there anything you would like to address? Okay, Ms. Kemp. Uh, Dr. Jackson, any others? With that said, um, there's no um, the the, yep, the, uh, um, a move for

Roy Sudler, Jr.

Mr. Chair. I move for to accept staff recommendations for the approval of the 2027 transportation uh priorities for the city of Dover.

Fred A. Neil

Neil seconds.

Andre M. Boggerty

Properly moved and seconded. Are you ready for the question? All those in favor signify by saying aye.

Council Members

Aye.

Andre M. Boggerty

By consent the motion carries. Thank you so much. Looks like you're going to hang out with us again, uh City Manager. Two is the Emergency Shelter Rules and Regulations. Um, chair recognizes City Manager Duca.

Sharon Duca

Good evening, Sharon Duca, City Manager. Um We've prepared a presentation for this evening. And tonight we have with us, uh Dawn Melson-Williams, Principal Planner, uh Kay Sass, the Emergency Management and Communications Director. We also have Jason Osika, the Fire Marshal, and again Jason Lyon, Assistant City Manager, uh who can uh help answer certain questions regarding some of this presentation, or if further dis- discussion warrants it. Um, basically, uh it starts off with zoning here in the City of Dover. Um All land in the City of Dover is assigned a zoning district, and those ze- zoning regulations outline the types of use that's permitted on a particular parcel. Uh, whether it's residential, commercial, industrial, institutional, and so forth. Um The zoning regulations also feature uh lot size, building height, things of that nature, to uh to address the features of the parcel and the adjoining area. Um, these regulations can be found in Appendix B of the City of Dover Code of Ordinances, uh, listed as Zoning Ordinance. Uh, there also are various zoning overlay districts which include additional design regulations depending on where you're located within the city. Um, for each zoning district, there are listed permitted uses, which are uses allowable by right. There's conditional uses that are allowed through the use of a conditional use application, and there's prohibited uses. Um, if a use is not listed in a zoning district, it's considered uh not allowed within that zone. The flow chart shown on this slide basically shows uh the procedure, um, simplified, of course. Um, prohibited uses, uh obviously you cannot move forward with those in that zoning district. Um, there's permitted uses, which you can either go to a site development plan process, um, this Planning Commission, administrative plan reviews, which leads to the permit process, um, part further evaluation by building code, fire code in the Planning Office, and then that leads to business and occupancy licenses. There's also the conditional use off to the right there. Um, it also has a sp- a particular application process and goes through the Planning Commission. Um, once approved by the Planning Commission, that then jumps in in the permit process, uh, that's listed under the permitted uses. Uh, it should be noted that the conditional use application process is outlined in the Zoning Ordinance in Article 10, Section 1. The applications are submitted to the Planning Commission for review, and they are the approving authority, um, for that process. In terms of definitions, uh in the Zoning Ordinance, there's the definition of an emergency shelter, which is a facility providing temporary housing to homeless or transient persons in a dormitory-style setting. Such as facility may also provide or facilitate other social services, including counseling or vocational training. According to the Delaware Code, an emergency housing shelter is a temporary shelter uh that provides short-term housing and supportive services, uh for a period of 90 days or less. The um City Dover Code, as I mentioned, references dormitory-style setting. Uh that is further defined as a building, or a space in a building, which accommodates more than 16 persons who are not members of the same family. There's also a lodging or rooming house, uh which accommodates uh up to 16 people in a transient or permanent basis. Um, it should be noted that in terms of uh emergency sheltering uh and sheltering in general, the Delaware State Housing Authority, which is now known as Housing Delaware, um was involved with the June 11th, 2026, uh Governor Meyer uh and Housing Delaware announced the Hope Center expansion in Kent County, which was a former DSU facility, and before that, it was the Sheraton Inn. Uh, city staff has been in regular contact with the director and Housing Cabinet Secre- Secretary Matthew Heckles and have placed inquiries regarding the facilities uh that Dr. Sudler has mentioned uh regarding state facilities that could be available. Uh, staff is still reviewing other options at that time. Uh, so at this point, we're open to any questions of staff regarding this, um, or we could just be available during discussion.

Andre M. Boggerty

Uh, thank you. Um, let me grab capture everybody. I want to uh also, be- before I recognize everybody, one thing that I Everybody pretty much knows my project, but one thing I want to make Could you bring to clarity is something that I'm experiencing with my project downtown that even though I was permit I have a permit, I have a permit I had to purchase to say that this area, I mean I had to pay to say that this building is zoned for for X, for whatever I'm working on, the functional use change, which now required me to, um, add a fire extinguish I'm not saying this for advocating for myself. It's just information. I I would never compromise myself. So, so now, because even though what my project fell into that zoning, my functional the functional use, because the Dollar General was there and they didn't It wasn't a gathering place as mine will be, um, it is it true or can you uh explain that func- It may be zoned, but usage may still may require different um, um, requirements? For example, now, that it it didn't have a s- a fire uh sprinkler system now because of my use change, I have to add one. Is that

Sharon Duca

Right, so, um, and staff can certainly correct me if I err in any way,

Andre M. Boggerty

And for the record, this is not advocating for myself. I'm paying for it. I just want other to know that when you change the use of something, even if it's zoned, there are additional requirements.

Sharon Duca

Right, so, um, it sounds like what you initially referenced was a zoning verification letter that you may have gotten. Um, from there, what as shown in the process with the flowchart, um, when those reviews come in for a plan review, um, permit applications, those are further reviewed by staff, including the fire marshal, public works, water wastewater, and so forth. And depending on specifically what's happening there, um, as opposed to a general category, that could trigger different things depending on which section of code or, um, the NFPA or whatever they're looking at could be applicable.

Andre M. Boggerty

Right, because you're the use may trigger other I just wanted to, and again, I had to learn the hard way, but, I mean, the right way, uh, but the use may may require different, uh, different requirements. So, that's in a layman's terms. I just wanted to pull that out that somebody say, "I'm zoned for this." Yeah, but you're using it for this, which is strict. So, I just wanted to put that in, um, to let you know that that's that's a thing. The chair recognizes Councilman Dr. Sudler and right after that, I believe, uh, Councilman Anderson, did you have a Okay.

Roy Sudler, Jr.

All right, thank you for recognizing me, Chairman Boggerty. Um, I must say also thank, we've had to thank, uh, Mayor Robin R. Christiansen, who also was part of the discussion in regards to possibly using the family court as a daytime hub. So, I definitely want to give him, um, some recognition, um, in regards to that matter. But I think that anything that we can come up with, uh, for a solution, uh, as an alternative would be, um, a great opportunity for us to show and demonstrate that we do, um, support our unsheltered constituents. Um, I also want to state for the record, uh, that it is not just the local, um, government that is responsible, uh, for the unsheltered constituents. Um, all public servant representatives from the County Commission to the state legislators, um, we all have a stake, have are stakeholders as, um, public servants. So, you know, I disagree with anyone who believes that this is just a City of Dover thing just because, um, you know, downtown Dover is dealing with a lot of it. So, all of us need to be on board and be included in this effort. I want to thank you and Team Dover Team Dover 4, um, working on this. It's very important. Uh, I do believe that I don't just speak for myself. I think all council persons here or public servants would agree that, you know, we are concerned about the unsheltered and that we do, uh, want to make sure that they are okay. It's never okay to have a vulnerable population that, um, is, you know, unsheltered or not receiving the resources. However, I believe that those individuals who are unsheltered, if you need mental health resources, you should take advantage of mental health resources, or if you need housing or any resources that you need, I do believe that you should take advantage of that because I also believe that if you do not take advantage of that, then there's a fine line between, you know, mental health, um, concerns, unhoused concerns, and just criminal trespassing. And so, as well as, uh, compassion intervention, I believe we need to have compassion intervention on the front side, but on the back side, there still needs to be criminal intervention if they're not going to comply and continue to not get the services and, um, sort of, you know, um, encroach upon people's, uh, rights and their property and their enjoyment of their premises. Um, everyone has circumstances that, you know, is unfortunate, but if you have to be willing to seek the help that you need. And so, I just want to say that for the record. That's where I stand, and thank you for the work that you're doing for our unsheltered and mental health, um, a challenged constituents. I yield.

Andre M. Boggerty

Thank you. Chair recognizes Councilman Anderson.

David L. Anderson

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Permission to dialogue?

Andre M. Boggerty

Permission granted.

David L. Anderson

Thank you. Um, I want to thank you for the time and and putting this uh, report together. I do have uh, several questions, um, that relate to it. Uh, the 90 days, the City of Dover doesn't have anything different from that, is that correct? We're relying uh, for that definition solely on the state law? That's correct. Okay. Now, uh, back in the not too distant, we used to have, um, yeah, a rotating, it wasn't an issue, we used to have a rotating cycle, um, and then COVID came and interrupted that. Um, uh, the, um, I I guess the first question that I have is, um, if tomorrow were December 1st, and the nighttime temperature was going to be, uh, approximately, uh, 28°, um, what would happen? Where what what would Where would we go from here, what would be the the the plan if tomorrow were December 1st?

Sharon Duca

I think I'd like to bring up Kay Sass, who's, uh, been working on emergency plan related to these types of things.

David L. Anderson

I appreciate that. Thank you.

Kay Sass

Good evening. Thank you. Kay Sass. So thankfully tomorrow's not December 1st, right? One of the big issues that we kind of ran into this year is we started this early in the year. We waited until right after the winter weather, so in March, we started this process to try to get compliance with everything to make sure everything was good to go. Um when it became apparent that that wasn't going to happen, we started reaching out to different folks throughout the community. I don't really want to drop names and I certainly don't want to drop organizations or affiliates right now beyond that uh because nothing is in stone yet, but we've been working quite diligently with other folks around the community to make some other plans just in case sort of thing. We don't know for sure what's going to happen, um but I believe that we'll get to a point come December 1st that something will be in place.

David L. Anderson

And and that you are we we've had conversations, and I know that you're working very diligently. Um, but I know some things are still in play, and that that concerns me greatly, as you can imagine. Um, what is um uh, so my my big concern is we've uh we've uh discouraged uh the existing capability without having in place the expansion, and uh and that that concerns me. I I With the Hope Center, um they were hoping to be open by December 1st. However, um uh things are just getting started and and uh the word I keep getting back is they can't be don't have any guarantees, they're not sure they can. Um, have you heard any What's the latest feedback you've heard from uh Dr. Heckles, Secretary Heckles, and the like and in that crew?

Kay Sass

So, again, I don't really want to disclose what the entities um plans are. I mean, I think you we all know as much as what the next one knows. I can say he's very hopeful. Um he's got a plan in place of starting with specific areas and having those evaluated. Jason uh Osika and I, the fire marshal and deputy emergency management director, he and I have been in constant communication as well. Um we're very familiar with the building uh because of Jason doing stuff for the fire marshal's office, of the fact that there are areas in the facility, first, the building is compliant, right? There are areas in the facility that are properly sprinkle- sprinkled, sprinklered, and sorry, and could be used, as right? Right? Has sprinklers. So, um, but could be used in an emergency sort of situation. So, I've I've posed that question, and we've had a lot of dialogue back and forth.

David L. Anderson

for it. But with that, now he had recently said that he was going to uh reach out to existing organizations uh to help. Is that part of a a plan um to to try to get uh staffing, volunteers, etcetera, um because it Because you obviously, just having the facilities, well, even if if we get the facility up and running, that's one thing. But it takes more than just having the facility. Uh there's a whole plan that has to go in place uh regarding everything from Well, I don't have to tell you.

Sharon Duca

Right. Absolutely with that.

David L. Anderson

I'll just ask you the question for time.

Sharon Duca

Right, it takes a village, and, you know, there's been a lot of people very vocal here on the floor, in the newspaper, on the news, on social media expressing a lot of interest in this and expressing the fact that they're concerned about it. A lot of people saying, you know, something needs to be done. And I would like to just when that time comes, if assistance is needed and volunteers are needed, I welcome each and all of you to come and help. I'll be there to help as well.

David L. Anderson

And uh now the one of the questions has to do with once um now once they start I think would Correct me if I'm wrong. Is the plan basically to try to start in an emergency capacity and then uh build up to a program For the Hope Center?

Sharon Duca

For the Hope Center?

David L. Anderson

Yes.

Sharon Duca

Yep. So yeah, that's exactly it. They have multi phases that they're looking at doing. So when they start implementation, they're going to start with, you know, one section of an emergency sort of sheltering, and then they're going to build their programming from there.

David L. Anderson

So, um do they have have they anyone thought have they thought about the transportation issues? Uh Or has that been discussed?

Sharon Duca

There has been discussion.

David L. Anderson

Still Still working on it though, right?

Sharon Duca

I mean part of that's, you know, DelDOT's inclusion and DART um for additional conversation. But when you're dealing with a state entity dealing with other state entities, it's a little bit easier communication inside than what it is for me to call up each and every entity and ask where they stand on it. And, you know, we have a lot of people I want to just kind of jump back a little bit. And I certainly do not want to call anybody out that's behind me in this room, right? But we have a lot of people that are really experts in running sheltering that at one time had even offered to volunteer. I don't want to lose that. I don't want to belittle that. We need to know that value, and we need to appreciate that value that's been given throughout the years for the community, right? So I hope that partnership continues to proceed forward.

David L. Anderson

Ex- exactly. Cuz sometimes uh uh the state government It's always well-intentioned. Um I don't knock that at all. But uh sometimes they will sort of big-foot things. And uh And sometimes, under the big foot, things get crushed that that already exist, and that's uh that's a definite concern that I have that when it comes to transitions, etcetera.

Sharon Duca

Well, I think that can happen at any layer any tier of government as far as that goes, any organization. Um I personally I feel like one place that Delaware lacks in social services is the state that I'm from 30 years ago. Um but they still do it this way. The state gets the money, and then the state distributes it at the county level, and the counties are able to distribute it as they see fit, right? By the state having the control over the funds, we're really kind of we tie our hands. The city is not a social service agency, you know, just piggybacking off of what Dr. Sudler was saying. We try to do what we can do. We try to provide what we can provide. I work with the Red Cross regularly. We're getting one of our facilities has been um approved. We just went through this. Uh I just had the inspection a week and a half ago. Um during a emergency disaster that we can actually utilize it as a Red Cross facility at this point. So we're going through that MOU and working through those right now. But there's, you know, there's so many different avenues that we can take, but it really Everything is limited when it comes to finances, and that ties everybody's hands whether you're a non-profit organization, whether you're government or it's you or I sitting in our own budgets, right, in our own bank accounts. Everything is really limited by money. So we're trying to do exactly what we can do to be able to provide something and have something as a plan B, something as a plan C. You know, we're not just settling with one backup plan. We're working on multiple avenues to be able to make sure we have something in place.

David L. Anderson

Uh uh, you know, would it be easier if I just uh wrote you a check for $10 million?

Sharon Duca

I will take it. I can start building tomorrow.

David L. Anderson

Even if it's Even if it's Sim Sim dollars, you know, from uh

Sharon Duca

Right, Sim money.

David L. Anderson

Right, Sim money, right? Uh that's it's about the $10 million I have. It's all in Sim money. Um the um Well, I it it is a concern uh because uh we may you know, I if we get information uh uh can we please you know, we utilize the newsletter and other avenues to keep us informed uh as more solid information come because the community is desperately concerned. I remember about over a dozen years ago back when before we had the Code Purple situation and, you know, how hard it was uh and how many people were literally dying in the streets uh from the cold. And uh those aren't days I want to see us return to, and neither do you nor does anyone else here. And so um uh you know, so, you know, please forgive uh that uh going to keep inquiring, keep checking, keep coming whatever because uh because uh that that concern uh really comes from the heart, and I yeah, there's people There's names that we know, you know, from from those times, and uh I know uh my my wife could tell you about people that she uh worked with who didn't make it because of the cold, and and um you know, and it's uh yeah, and anyway, I that it's just uh very it it's you know, that deadline is just ticking, and it just uh bothers me because now we're we're only uh what it What are we, about 34 days away?

Sharon Duca

That's correct.

David L. Anderson

And that

Sharon Duca

on all all of our minds, too.

David L. Anderson

that time just goes so quickly. I have uh I'm fair, so I'm going to yield the floor. And um And if there's time, I may come back. Thank you.

Roy Sudler, Jr.

Thank you. Um the chair recognizes Councilman Lewis and then Councilman Rocha in that order. Councilman Lewis.

Brian E. Lewis

Thank you. Uh we could be entering, as you know, a serious dilemma here, and the city is going to be suffering the brunt of this because we do not have the resources, everyone knows, and it's going to take the state to come in and assist us with this whole ordeal. Um we're talking about the old Sheraton, um the proposed new Kent Hope Center, um but we can talk till we're blue in the face. Um there's no guarantees. So my concern is, what is our contingency plan if the state bails out, they don't assist us, they don't get this Kent County Hope Center up and running? Um I mean, there was good ideas brought up about the old Morris Correctional Center, the old Family Court, but I don't know, to be honest with you, because I used to work for DOC and I worked in that facility, if that would be up to par to start moving people in there to run um a shelter because they have uh multiple issues in there. It's an old building, and there's a reason why it's been closed. So, taking that off the table, you have the old Family Courthouse. Um I don't believe I was ever in that courthouse since I resided down here in the city of Dover, so I don't know what it looks like inside uh or how you would possibly, if the state offered that building, house homeless in there or propose it as an emergency shelter. And I'm going to get to some questions with regard to emergency shelters in a minute with Ms. Duca. But, again, what's our contingency plan, as a city, if the state don't intervene?

Sharon Duca

So, starting again, I had I've spoken with uh Mr. Heckles from Delaware State Housing Authority. Well, Housing Delaware now. Um and that was for the Hope Center. I've been in conversation with State Facilities regarding those other two facilities, and one of them is an option. Um they're both zoned properly. They do have construction plans starting, so they're currently working through the construction uh project manager to see what those plans are and to see where the overlap of time would be. They've inquired about what our timeframe is, and I've shared all of that with them. Worst comes to worst, you know, we always pull something out, and the fact that we're getting certified as for uh one of our facilities as a Red Cross shelter, if we have to utilize that, then we have to entertain another conversation.

Brian E. Lewis

You refer to the Red Cross. Now, to my knowledge, the Red Cross is a great organization and they're always there with major catastrophes and all, but it's not long-term.

Sharon Duca

It's also they wouldn't be used for Code Purple-type sheltering, right? Because what they're used for is during a disaster. This does not qualify as a disaster. This is something that, you know, you can turn on the news and you can see what the weather's going to be. I apologize. I turned my back completely on you guys. Um but you can turn on the news and you can see what our weather is going to be, so it's not classified as an emergency shelter. They're sheltering it has to be fire-related, it has to be hurricane-related, tornado-related. But the fact that they saw the facility as something that could be used, we have cots available through the county for all of our emergency sheltering that we've done for other various weather-related incidences. So there are some means there to get us going on this. There are people who are experts who have also have materials that could be used in another location. You know, is there still the chance that another entity I'm really trying to be cautious how I'm phrasing this, right? I don't want to point fingers anywhere. But is there a chance that another entity is willing to still move forward with other options? I don't know that answer. I don't know. But I know what we're planning on doing, what we have as a plan B. Plan A, of course, was that everything was done on time and everything was running hunky-dory again for the season. Plan B is going towards the Hope Center. Plan C is looking at the other two state facilities. Plan D would be looking at our own facility.

Brian E. Lewis

Under- Understood, um but my concern is with the time constraints, too. Um have you reached out to any of the churches? And the reason I'm asking you this question is uh because, as you are aware, I've known you for a long time now. And uh I have been involved uh in volunteering and assisting the homeless population before I even moved down to this state. And back when I first arrived here, um before Code Purple even existed, we used to, and this was under uh Dover Interfaith Homeless Shelter with Jeanine Kleimo and all, we used to um transition the homeless around to sleep in different churches. We would do it like one church accommodated them one week, another another. Correct. Um have you reached out to any churches if, in fact, we get into a bind, if they would be willing to go back to what was previously done years ago?

Sharon Duca

I've not. Jason Osika and myself have looked at various facilities that are properly zoned, have the sprinklers, um and we've had additional conversations internally, but until we kind of get a little bit better feel I'm going to be meeting with Mr. Heckles soon. Um so I'm hoping to get something a little more concrete from the state, and you can trust that when push comes to shove and I have that volunteer form, I will walk up to each and every one of you asking you to sign up for a shift. So,

Brian E. Lewis

You you you know you got my signature already, because I've been doing this. But um I just again don't want to see us get into a bind because we're getting close, and uh that's why I'm asking these questions um because if, in fact, the state don't come through, and uh I have to be positive and hope that they do, uh and I, you know, hope the governor sees what's going on here uh through the media reports and everything and uh he intervenes uh with his housing secretary at at this juncture. But uh I I don't want to see this city get into a situation where we have tents popped over uh popped up uh in city parks and, you know, on corners. I mean, I see them right now popped up uh down at Legislative Hall. I mean, there's not a lot, there's few, but if if if nothing's done and, you know, you can have 50 down there. You know, what do you do?

Brian E. Lewis

All right, keep on plugging away, okay?

Sharon Duca

Always do.

Sharon Duca

And he's been very responsive. I absolutely cannot ask for better responses from him. I mean, he's been very responsive. They did, I, you know, was I was watching Kent County Pride probably like a lot of other people, and they did take ownership of the property at this point. So I I just got to keep working our way with them, and, you know, pray a little, and hope a little, and keep on planning.

Brian E. Lewis

Uh, Ms. Duca, with regard to the um emergency um shelter uh plan, has anything changed to your knowledge? Has there been anything added um within past years that was not mentioned to your knowledge, or has it always been pretty much blanket emergency shelter-type policy?

Sharon Duca

Are you talking in terms of the code?

Brian E. Lewis

Correct.

Sharon Duca

I'm not aware of it having changed in recent years.

Brian E. Lewis

Okay. And the reason I ask is because um you had mentioned that it's a short-term housing for 90 days or less, correct? So,

Sharon Duca

According to the state code.

Brian E. Lewis

According to the state. Okay. So, in the past, the city has issued uh uh emergency shelter provisions and allowed, for example, People's Community Center to become one.

Sharon Duca

Correct.

Brian E. Lewis

Within the past.

Sharon Duca

Correct.

Brian E. Lewis

Okay, um past couple of years, actually. So um what are the restrictions? I mean, number one, you had mentioned that they have to have a sprinkler system, correct? Correct. Uh they have to have bathrooms?

Sharon Duca

I think I might bring Jason down for some of these specifics if that's all right.

Brian E. Lewis

Okay.

Jason Osika

How you doing? Jason Osika, Fire Marshal.

Brian E. Lewis

Good evening, Jason.

Jason Osika

Good evening. Um I think where where you're alluding to is um so when I first took over, um that definition was already in code. I think that fell under uh Dave Truax and the staff at that time. Um Code Purple was one of the biggest uh groups handling everything with the rotation through the churches. Um at that time, there was a long list of churches that participated. Um we considered them, at that time, all existing. So if you fell into being authorized to do Code Purple, it was considered existing. Um we met with Code Purple staff, which has changed through the years, and said um, "Anything in the future is going to have to be a sprinklered facility for life safety purposes." Um Then COVID hit, and some other things happened, and for whatever reason some of the churches most of the churches dropped off. Um I don't know if it was a lack of volunteers, the program just got lengthy, I can't speak to that. Um with the most recent issues that that came about, um there was some things looked into from a citizen complaint where there's a zoning issue, um and Dawn can speak more to that, um but uh the city solicitor ruled that um everything has to be zoned properly. So that's what fell into the area downtown. It was a zoning issue, and there's a process for that. We thought we were headed in the right direction, that that didn't work out. Um but like Councilman uh Boggerty was alluding to earlier, so um to make it real clear, it is a little confusing, land use comes first. Just think about no building being in there. Um you have to be zoned for whatever you're going to do first. Then if you're if you're zoned correctly, then comes your building use, your building and fire codes. So, um with with his example, you could have a building sitting there that was used as a office building, but now you want to put um 300 people in there for a movie theater, that's a different occupancy classification. So now that's a change of use, and you have to come up to the current code for building and life safety issues. Yep. I felt I felt for you back there. Um so I think I think that bathrooms then come into play, um occupant loads, how many exits you need, how many people are going to be in the rooms, what

Unknown Speaker

being used for, all that comes into play.

Brian E. Lewis

So I think uh that answers um my question and uh many other people's question is because um the question was if uh the city has allowed within the past years these emergency shelters to come in to play without objection, why not this year? And you answer the question when you said because it was an opinion that came down from our city solicitor, so that's what ruffled the feathers. Am I correct?

Unknown Speaker

With the With the one at the the topic at hand, yes. There was a citizen complaint that came in, the city solicitor reviewed that, and there was a zoning issue which got us to where we're at now.

Brian E. Lewis

Okay. Thank you. Uh and that's all I have right now. Uh I may come back with questions, but I don't want to hold uh my other colleagues up. Thank you.

Andre M. Boggerty

Thank you. The chair recognizes Councilman Rocha.

Gerald L. Rocha, Sr.

Uh thank you, Mr. Chairman. I I think um Kay was able to answer the question. Um I just wanted to point out that um I can't speak correctional facility downtown, but when uh the mayor organized the unsheltered working group that I was a part of and and also uh Councilwoman Arndt uh and and members out out there in the audience that were on the uh unsheltered, that topic for the family court did come up. Uh we inquired about it. Um what I was told at the time was that the state was going to sell that building and it was also deteriorated, right? A lot of work needed to go into it. Um but uh what I what we were told at that time was um that the property was going to be sold to a developer. I don't know what they were going to do to it, but that uh the condition of the building right now um was not It was going to be a lot of money that would have been needed to, hence they built a new building for you know, for the probably the same reason as the correctional facility. So, I just, you know, not not to put a downer on it, it sounds like it could be still a possibility, maybe uh for a temporary situation, but I just wanted to put on the record that the unsheltered did um bring that up. You know, at the time, I I don't know if the correctional facility that uh Councilman Lewis was talking about was on the table at that time, but we knew that the family court was going to eventually, you know, be vacated and we uh we did seek out information on whether or not we could acquire that that building. So, just wanted to put that out there. Hope that they don't sell it and we are able to get it or use it, but at the time we did look into it uh back then. So, with with that said, I yield.

Andre M. Boggerty

Thank you. Hey, um while we're on that topic, as for those who remember or don't remember, choose to care, I was um I served a year and a half, 18 months, as Director of Human Resources for Family Court, and I worked out of all three offices. My primary office was in Wilmington, and um I worked at the Family Court here in Dover and then the the previous one in Georgetown, not the new one here in Dover. I will say um the the building in and of itself would be interesting because of there's not that many facility restroom facilities um inside there. I'm not even sure, I don't remember even showering or anything like that. And um the way the building is constructed, uh depending how it's laid out, experts probably could um, you know, manage it more than my eyes can see, cuz when it was operating, it was a court. There you would need a lot the way it's cut and moved, and it you would need a lot of safety. In fact, during the time I was an HR, the HR director there, on one of the floors we had a few fights um um that we had to respond to um, and run up the stairs, etc., well, not me, I was, but the security and and the constables alike uh had to respond to you. So, it would be, I would never, anything's possible, but it would be a very interesting layout and a very interesting um usage of the building, especially concerning like uh restrooms, etc. So, I would be interested in that um to see that. The chair recognizes the Honorable Mayor Robin.

Robin R. Christiansen

I yield to Dr. Sudler.

Andre M. Boggerty

The chair recognizes um the yield to Dr. Sudler.

Roy Sudler, Jr.

Uh thank you, Mayor, for uh yielding and thank you um Chairman for recognizing me. Um I've done some extensive research uh in regards to both facilities. Um from and I could be wrong, um from my research it sounds like uh the the uh Morris Community Corrections Center is structurally sound. Um with holding 150 beds, um residential asset currently maintained by the state. Yes, um the recent infrastructure investment, okay. So, it sounds like also when it comes to the zoning, uh located on West uh Water Street, uh it fits into a governmental industrial buffer zone away from downtown commercial storefronts and residential front porches, completely neutralizing downtown zoning friction. I would like to ask um my question to you is, I would like to ask if the facility is not um suitable or if the infrastructure is not sound, in other words, who do does does our city code enforcement, do we go in and do our fire marshals go in and assess that this building is not habitable?

Sharon Duca

So, I think the the key thing to remember is that uh we're not providing excuses this evening for why we can't do anything. Kay brought up a four-part plan. We're trying to find different availability. She's been working, and Jason, they've been working with the state on various levels, different locations. So, I don't think we've come across a uh obstacle at this point in terms of any facility that's completely off-limits. It's trying to work through the process uh to make sure um it works with the what's the state able to accomplish, what are we able to accomplish, and things of that nature.

Sharon Duca

Do you mean usable for emergency shelter?

Roy Sudler, Jr.

Yes, usable, I call it At this point, I would say habitable because I do know that um the Morris Community Corrections Center, in my view, if it had 150 beds, you know, it was sort of for housing um you know, those individuals, I think level four, you know, those who are seeking uh some type of mental health or just coming from, you know, jail, that transition home. But yes, in in other words, do we have a a pulse on whether or not the actual facility is usable? When I say usable, meaning does it have asbestos, you know, asbestos, so it can't we can't be in there? Um Is there mold and mildew? Because the lights are on every night um and taxpayers are paying for that facility uh with their tax dollars. And we can help our unsheltered. I believe that it would be in our best interest to do so. That's 150 beds. If there's something minor that we can take care of uh to fill in the gap of the Sheraton not being open uh within whatever weeks or months, I think it would be in our best interest to do so because um I think that we can we need to invest in something uh right now uh for our unsheltered than than try to In my view, uh we have a whole bunch of excuses why we can't do something. I'm trying to look at why we can. How How can we do this? You know, um so what is preventing the Morris Community Corrections Center that we know factually right now, structurally or environmentally? Is there Is there any, you know, environmental hazards in there uh that is causing the for us the homeless not to be able to temporarily use that or the unsheltered to temporarily use that? And And also in regards to the um the courthouse, the courthouse is also, in my view, from my um research, is also um healthy when it comes to the zoning. They can use that as a daytime hub where people can come in for they can be out the cold during the daytime, and they can deal with caseworkers or deal with uh individuals that want to provide them with some type of, you know, um sources or resources to help them through the day and give them a shelter away from um areas that other individuals have deemed um them to be undesirable, like in front of businesses, sleeping in front of Lockerman, you know, um the businesses on Lockerman Street at night, or even City Hall. There's there's individuals that's sleeping at night right here in City Hall. So, we have to put them somewhere um where they'll be safe, right, and where it's where it's more suitable uh, in my view, and safe. Um What is What What is restricting us from, separate from getting the okay from those who own those facilities, or the state who owns that facility, separate from the okay, what is structurally keeping us from using the Family Court as a daytime hub for resources and then using Morris at night for for beds? Because they have a cafeteria, they have showers. Their infrastructure is ready to go for day one, December 1st, from my research, I could be wrong, um but it's ready to go. Morris, that is ready to go day one. And the daytime hub could be the Family Court, ready to go day one. So, and and I'm wondering what is what is the big um elephant in the room? What's keeping us from making this happen separate from state legislators um or Kent Kent County legislators or local legislators, us, pushing for this to happen uh now? That, you know, as as if there is no contingency plan. It's It's structurally sound, because if it wasn't, then it would be torn down, right? If it was If it was a dangerous building, it should be on the dangerous building list for the city of Dover or for Kent County or for the state, and I don't see it on the dangerous building list. So, um what's keeping us from utilizing it? Uh I'm sure it doesn't have to be a five-star hotel. Uh we're talking about people who are sleeping outside. Uh so, you know, I'm I'm not um blaming anyone or frustrated at anyone particularly, but I'm compassionate about the the the circumstances and and all these, you know, in my view, um examples of excuses of why we can't do what needs to be done. Um so, it's not towards you or anyone particular, it's just it's blaming on on on my heart for the unsheltered. I yield.

Roy Sudler, Jr.

And thank you. I didn't I didn't, like I said, it wasn't directly towards anyone in particular. I just feel like I've heard a lot of excuses from other um public servants of why we can't do what whatever we are trying to to help bring relief to our constituents in whatever way. And I guess it's a spilling over of that, you know, it's it's time for the excuses to stop and if you're going to be a public servant, let's serve and let's help our constituents. So, please don't uh not for you, Kay, or It's It's It's just, I guess, you know, spilling over, so just getting a little frustrated with with the excuses in general. I yield.

Sharon Duca

Understood.

Andre M. Boggerty

Thank you. The chair recognizes uh Mayor Christiansen.

Robin R. Christiansen

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Uh as Ms. Kay indicated, we have been in constant uh conversation with Secretary Magkos, and they should have a plan, according to Senator Paradee, a plan with uh in the next week or so in regarding uh fast-tracking the Hope Center. Now, it has some deficiencies, but in an emergency, I'm sure that it could be used. But the entire program is going to be based on transportation for those who need it. It has 150 box springs that DelDOT state left the furniture uh there for whoever took it over. In addition to providing wrap-around services for the residents of the future Hope Center and also security, security being maintained for that facility. Also, several people from the IMA, the Interdenominational Ministers Association, are revisiting their participation in Code Purple. So, uh and I appreciate your uh your your uh information on the Morris Center and the Family Court building. At one time in a in a past life, I did have the opportunity uh that those were two of my accounts, and Family Court is very cut up. However, it would be usable. And the Morris Center does need some uh upgrades, and I'm not sure what those uh would be because this is 13 years after the fact, but I think that the fact that the IMA and Secretary Magkos are trying to fast-track something or get other people involved is the route we need to go, and we need to go in earnest. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Andre M. Boggerty

The chair recognizes um uh committee member uh Kemp online. Uh Ms. Kemp, you're recognized. Some reason we hearing I think they're hearing um online, but not in pub- not here. Stand by, uh Ms. Kemp. They're making some adjustments.

Andre M. Boggerty

Okay, now you can hear you. Can you restate whatever you were saying? We appreciate it. Thank you.

Kimberly Kemp

Now, as someone who, you know, works with justice-involved victims and and the homeless population, my primary concern would be case management. What type of case management services are going to be addressed at this emergency housing facility to encourage sustainability and mental health and substance abuse treatment services? Um and if if we are reaching out to criminal justice agencies such as Probation and Parole, Dover PD, because some of these people may be justice-involved, so these are just things that I would I would like to for us to have at the forefront of this conversation and measuring how the the um progress is going with these individuals that are engaging in such services.

Andre M. Boggerty

Thank Thank you, uh Ms. Kemp. I'm sure I know Ms. Duca we kind of you kind of addressed that. Could you restate that for the record about the plan or the mayor um the wrap-around services that would be provided?

Sharon Duca

I think the the mayor said it best.

Andre M. Boggerty

Yeah.

Robin R. Christiansen

So, our understanding of the preliminary plans uh are for uh folks with addiction to receive wrap-around services there. Uh it even has morphed into the fact that they hope to put that in place because they have a commercial kitchen there to provide job training and uh the whole gamut to get these folks back on the street. The Hope Center for Kent County, as as we've discussed it uh previously, and I don't think that model has changed yet, we've not received any notification, is to uh differ from the Hope Center in New Castle County. It is must not going to be just a warehouse, but it's going to be something that has meaningful services for folks that have drug addiction, alcohol addiction, uh mental health issues, and who are in need of job training uh so that they can go back and lead the the life that they really should be leading rather than uh being trapped in in whatever situation they are. So, that's the initial plan on it. I don't think that that has changed. I think it's just a It's just a matter of getting those uh those in place once the once the center gets up and running.

Andre M. Boggerty

Thank Thank you. Um and I do know individuals have asked about transportation. I I do know that some some of the transportation, specifically up north uh in New Castle, some of that transportation is contracted out. So, they are contractors who provide transportation through a state through state contracting to uh For example, um I know for a fact that we have children who live in New Castle at the Hope Center who commute to uh Dover uh or to Capital School District because the children have a right to attend schools in their in their areas. We have our You still council president, are you still president? We have We're fortunate enough to have president of the school board who who's shaking um her head and validating that that um So, um so the some of those individuals come via contractors. Is that correct, Dr. Cade?

Dr. Vilicia Cade

Yes, that is correct. That falls under McKinney-Vento, and so under that law we are required to transport our students to whatever school district they are originally from if that is the family's desire. And so that's already set up through the school district, and yes, our services are contracted.

Andre M. Boggerty

And in those Hope and in some of the member and some of the individuals who live in the Hope um Hope Center also receive transportation to various doctor's appointments, etc. Um all right, so um there's a couple members of the public um we who would like to um address us. Please state your name for the record and

Bonnie

Good evening, everyone. Hi. My name is Bonnie. I live in Dover. I have one question: Last year when it was so cold outside, they had opened up the high school in the evening to give these homeless people a place to live. Could they not do that again until they find a home to put these people off the street? Because it's not going to be December by time it gets cold, it's getting cold already. Number two, the place that's in front of the the um

Faye White

saying. Everybody's saying it's not a good place to use. I got three questions. One, the electric bills on every—the lights are on every day, every night. I know, because I go by there every day. Number two, if it is so bad in this building, why are they renting out their offices, uh, rooms for office space, and they're training dogs there? So if it's this bad and it's got so much mildew, so much damage, why are they putting these dogs' life in danger? That's my questions.

Faye White

My thing is, there's plenty of schools out here that can be opened at nighttime. They've done it once. Why can't they do it again? You cannot wait until December to put these people in a home.

Faye White

You think we had deaths last year? We're going to have more this year, because it's going to get colder.

Faye White

And I know for a fact there was three of them here last year in the city that did not die from drugs. They died from being frozen to death. Sleeping on a cold ground just in a blanket is not going to keep anybody warm.

Faye White

So why can't they open up the schools? There's plenty of schools in this area that could be used in the evening for a couple hours a night or the weekends. The place is—they leave the lights on at the school. Everybody in this room is paying the taxes, so why can't they use it? I mean, seriously, I'm getting tired of paying taxes on an electric bill that's that's being used, and nobody's in the building.

Faye White

I don't know about anybody else, but I know I'm getting tired of putting all my heart and tax money out just for me not to see none of it. Thank you.

Andre M. Boggerty

Thank you. There's—ma'am, I need a need you to come to my house and tell my son that. What? Uh Mr. Faust.

William Faust

William Faust, Dover, Delaware. Dr. Sudler, just to answer your question, Morris Correctional Facility, all the staff areas are maintained. Inmates don't destroy it. Offenders are very hard on equipment. I've had offenders rip toilets out, destroy plumbing. Councilman, uh, Lewis worked at the prison. It has it hasn't been used in years, the kitchen and everything like that. So there's issues.

William Faust

To my thinking, like partners that used to work there, it had plumbing issues. It had air back and heating issues, because sometimes they were freezing at night time, just to digres that. I want to think outside the box. Have we ever discussed, called the National Guard, FEMA, or Dover Air Force Base and asked if they could set up on a temporary basis emergency housing, come in just drop it down, has water, has everything? It gets us through the winter months.

William Faust

You know, we have National Guard bases, the state, the may- I mean, the governor could ask for something to be done, or go to uh the federal government and say, "Look, FEMA, we got people freezing to death. Can we get some portable housing be dropped here, temporary basis to get us through five or six months of the cold?" Has anyone thought of that?

William Faust

I mean, right now we can't count on the state. The state might be crying poverty. Go to the federal government. Go to the National Guard. If there was disaster hit, the National Guard could put up tents or temporary housing to to house Marines, uh National Guard, whatever. Have we thought about doing that?

William Faust

I'm just saying, you know, time's ticking away. Let's be smart. I mean, we can't blame it on anyone if we don't ask. How do you know they're going to say no? Thank you for your time.

Andre M. Boggerty

Uh thank you. Um Oh the Oh there's we uh one more member from the public, I believe. Two, two more members. Please state your name and address for the record.

Asher Samandra. Um

Hello. Um my name is Asher Samandra. Um I just um believe that we we've been given um great opportunity here. There are um amazing places around here that are really are helping us. Um We just need The homeless people just need to take advantage of it.

Asher Samandra. Um

Um that's just really nutshell of it. We had to take advantage of what we are given. Um So and there's um just some people that wreck it for everybody else. That's It is what it is, though. So

Asher Samandra. Um

that's what I think about security. When you guys talk about security, I think about that. About how like it's how places are going to be secure um when there's people around here who um just appear that they don't want to get their lives together or even attempt at it. So

Asher Samandra. Um

that's all I wanted to say. Thank you.

Andre M. Boggerty

Thank you.

Andre M. Boggerty

Was somebody else, all right.

Aimee Norman

Hi, Aimee Norman. I am currently homeless. Um I wrote something for the city of Dover. Not trying to come out y'all, but y'all really need to fix this because winter's coming, like a lot of other people have said. And not a lot of us have a place to re- let's rest our heads or even stay warm, like a couple of other people said. And most shelters don't take couples, dogs, or even sex offenders.

Aimee Norman

We need a place for all of us to go to stay warm this winter. And the winter's coming fast if you haven't seen the news. But we all really need a place to stay and keep our heads warm, even if it's something small. People have talked to me about tent cities, or even a small little apartment on the outskirts of town, not even on the outskirts, just on the edge that could be built for us, just to keep our heads warm at night during this cold winter. Thank you.

Andre M. Boggerty

Thank you. Um The chair recognizes Ms. Anderson.

Ms. Anderson (Public Commenter)

Um yes, being a former National Guard family, and now reservist, [laughter] um I was thinking what Mr. Faust said, too. I've been sitting back here thinking, we already have a crime issue in Dover, okay? Why couldn't we bring in the Guard? We could deal with Could we do that, deal with the crime and the homelessness at the same time? There has to be some kind of solution.

Ms. Anderson (Public Commenter)

And I get what we're bringing up the schools, but I also get what the young lady just said about the sex offenders. We can't have sex offenders staying after being near our children, either. So I I get where there's complications with that, but could we Is there a way that we could bring in the National Guard just temporarily to help with this homelessness situation, and also with the crime that's getting out of control? Could we do both things at one time? I don't know, but we've got to do something, because these people are going to freeze to death. Thank you.

Andre M. Boggerty

Thank you. The chair recognizes uh Mayor Christiansen.

Robin R. Christiansen

Yes, and uh I think that, in a humanitarian uh point of view, the uh National Guard could help us, maybe, if we reach out to uh Adjutant General Benson. But I will tell you that we are not going to bring or request troops to be on the streets in the city of Dover. We have a crime issue, we have issues, but it violates one of the tenets of this government or federal government, and that's posse comitatus. And uh I don't think that we need uh National Guard troops If we're if we're that bad, we are really in trouble.

Robin R. Christiansen

But I think on the humanitarian end of it, uh I see no problem with us reaching out to General Benson to see what they might be able to help us with. But remember, posse comitatus. You can go to some of these other foreign countries, and the military is on the street all the time. We don't need that here. We have a competent police force that does the best that they can do every day, and the problem is up the food chain, not with Dover Police Department.

Andre M. Boggerty

Thank you. Um If that's it, I want to provide information. I've been working with this uh with this housing um organization um kind of behind the scenes, now I want to bring it to the forefront. Um It's It's called Saving Place for You um For You Inc. They house veterans. Um I've been with Miss Frances Perry uh uh they've been working together. I just confirmed that, if they're a veteran, they have four bedrooms left, and it's right here um right on Salisbury Road, kind of by the Subway.

Andre M. Boggerty

Um and I'll give you the number. If you're a veteran or you know a veteran that's unhoused right now, um um they do help with, you know, coordinate some services, but they have four bedrooms left. It's a very well-kept area. Um The area is The phone number is (302) 514-7242. I've also provided it to the city clerk to disseminate to uh members of council just in case you run into a veteran that um that finds themselves in an unfortunate situation of being unhoused for any reason.

Andre M. Boggerty

Please feel free to contact me directly if you if you need to. With that said, if there be no more, um Councilman The chair recognizes Councilman Anderson.

David L. Anderson

Thank you, Mr. Mr. Chairman. I One of the problems I'm glad that the state is finally uh taking the Kent County problems seriously, because uh one of the problems has been the money from the federal government for housing, for homelessness, and sheltering uh goes to the state of Delaware to distribute. And one of the problems is uh the state of Delaware has not been equitably distributing it based upon the served population of the homeless served.

David L. Anderson

And that's been a huge problem. For instance, uh they look at Dover and they say 5% of the population. And uh you get 5% of the money, but they don't recognize that we're serving the folks who lose their homes in Felton, the folks who lose their homes in Harrington, in Smyrna, and and even in Townsend, et cetera, and even parts of Maryland. And we literally have um we're we're literally serving people uh equal to around 20 to 23% of the state's homeless population.

David L. Anderson

So we should be getting at least We should be getting that much of the uh of the funding. And you know, it should be based upon the homeless population served. Um Just because most of the homeless people aren't actually from Dover doesn't mean we can ignore them, because they end up on our streets. So that's the um So I I think we definitely need to keep advocating, and I thank you, and I yield.

Andre M. Boggerty

Thank you. If there be no more, I move for the adjournment of the Safety Advisory Transportation Committee. I turn it back over to you. There's no action comit- action. I want to thank my committee uh members uh members uh public for being here. Um I turn it back over to you, Council President.

Fred A. Neil

Thank you, Chairman Boggerty. Uh I now recognize Chairman David Anderson to conduct the business of the Legislative, Finance, and Administration Committee. The floor is yours, sir.

David L. Anderson

Uh thank you, Mr. President. The Legislative, Finance, and Administration Committee is now called to order. Is there a motion for the adoption of the agenda?

Tricia K. Arndt

Move to adopt the agenda.

Gerald L. Rocha, Sr.

Rocha seconds.

David L. Anderson

Councilwoman Arndt has moved for the adoption of the agenda, seconded by Councilman Rocha. Is there discussion or amendment? Seeing none, uh all those in favor?

Tricia K. Arndt

Aye.

Gerald L. Rocha, Sr.

Aye.

David L. Anderson

Any opposed? Motion carried. Good.

David L. Anderson

All right. Welcome, uh Councilwoman Dr. Pillsbury, to uh to the meeting, who's joined us. And uh of course Councilwoman Hall's uh been there, as well. Um And uh let's get started.

David L. Anderson

Uh the first item on the agenda is discussion and report update on Capital Area Municipal Sustainability Act. And uh I'd like to uh uh City Manager Duca, if you would like to come forward, because you've gotten a lot of information. And uh of course, Dr. Sudler, it's his uh initiative, and we have his cosponsor uh Councilman Lewis, and so anytime you gentlemen uh wish to um add some things, uh please feel free. Uh We've been doing uh a lot of work on on this, and uh as Dr. Sudler knows, we've been uh doing a lot of research on it, and I want to thank uh Ms. Duca for and and not just you, of course [laughter] whole supporting staff, which you've done a a lot on on some very important issues. When There were I'll give a quick summary of of where we are, and then I'm going to turn it over to you to to re-summarize that, and, of course, Dr. Sudler.

David L. Anderson

Um one of the um We fir- The first step we had was getting a legal opinion, because it we didn't make sense to waste our time and put a lot of effort into a path that wasn't legal, wouldn't be legally sustainable. Uh And uh and all of you have, of course, the uh the legal opinion by our solicitors, very well written, very comprehensive. And uh and uh the proposals um been adjusted to accommodate some of the uh strengths and weaknesses of the that was in the legal opinion. That was step one.

David L. Anderson

Uh step two is, to make sure that we can accommodate this, uh we we have to have a basis, a cost basis uh to even talk about it in reality, because we have to know how much uh our infrastructure costs us, how much it costs to service, how much it costs to add um certain things. And uh that's also an issue that we have with the data center.

David L. Anderson

Uh when we pass the uh the data center pause, um I don't want to say the uh M-word, because I don't want Linda Parkowski to be upset with me, [laughter] data center pause, um we we had in it um a a infrastructure cost study.

David L. Anderson

And one of the important things with CAMSA is an infrastructure cost study, and so that we can understand Because one of the We We have some under- you know, that from our but some of it, um understandably so, it's hard to understand like you If somebody were to build a a facility, how much would it cost to add? How much would that add to our infrastructure cost? That varies. Varies by location, by how much is added, how it's broken down. Uh So So coming up with a a a number

David L. Anderson

that you can uh defend in court, it's an average, or or whatever, is uh a very important issue. Um And in both cases. So um

David L. Anderson

one of the things we're looking at was an RFP regarding that. Um And so that we Because that will help us in so many other areas. It will help us in our priority-based budgeting, it will help us in when we're uh looking at uh economic incentive and and those type of credits, um uh because we we need to grow, and we need to encourage growth, but we also need to make sure that we don't inadvertently encourage growth that negatively affects um other the people who are already here and the businesses that are already here.

David L. Anderson

So it has to As Dr. Sudler says, growth has to pay for growth. Um Now, that in that say um But But how can you do that without that? Yeah, and so, um that's something that we looked at.

David L. Anderson

So, uh at this point, I'm going to yield to uh City Manager Duca.

Sharon Duca

Thank you very much. Um City Manager Sharon Duca. Um As was mentioned, um we went through the CAMSA report. Um We've had various discussions with Dr. Sudler and certain other representatives, including Councilman Rocha, Councilman Anderson, um Representative Lynn. And um I know Dr. Sudler has probably talked to other people, as well, Senator Coons, without I wasn't at present at that one. Um But, uh trying to gain support, and uh one of the key things, I think,

Sharon Duca

particularly with me from an engineering perspective, is as uh Councilman Anderson mentioned, is we want to be able to substantiate the basis behind how we're coming up with the cost. And one of the things that was included in the CAMSA proposal was various relations between engineering calculations associated with the infrastructure uh and how that equates to uh buildings over 50,000 square foot um and the effects on the infrastructure overall. Um We started working on an RFP for that. Um

Sharon Duca

Jason Lyon has been extremely helpful in uh trying to get that off the ground. Um One of our recent discussions has been about uh the original CAMSA proposal was for uh tax-exempt properties. Um One of the things that's you can't really differentiate is users exist

Sharon Duca

regardless of their tax status, um which is something that the utility rate studies do for electric service. It's based upon all users as well as water/wastewater studies.

Sharon Duca

Um so uh we had recent discussions about opening it up, looking at all properties. So it goes from approximately 30 tax-exempt properties to uh over 100 um all properties over with buildings over 50,000 square feet.

Sharon Duca

Um so we are currently looking at those uh parcels that we got from the GIS system trying to get gross square footage for those parcels. Uh that data would be necessary in a study to be performed through the RFP.

Sharon Duca

Um we're also it was recently brought up about uh looking at the infrastructures uh overall that would relate to data centers and uh large users uh in conjunction with this, and uh we are at the preliminary stages of trying to combine the two. Um we're also trying to assess the best way to focus the proposal uh in relationship to the type of consultant we would be looking for.

Sharon Duca

Um there's obviously um engineering firms that deal with the equations and uh relationships to infrastructure. Uh there's also um

Sharon Duca

firms like NewGen that has done our rate studies, which uh Miss Marni, our controller/treasurer, has talked to them about the possibility that they could do a rate study in relation to this. Uh so we're trying to get the RFP a little more focused and try to evaluate the best audience that we're going to be looking for.

Sharon Duca

So that's kind of where we stand right now.

David L. Anderson

Dr. Sudler, and then Councilman Rocha.

Roy Sudler, Jr.

Uh thank you for recognizing me, uh Chairman Anderson. So, um in other words, the the infrastructure proposal or the RFP for um an assessment of our overall infrastructure and the cost and what we're actually providing as a service, that could also be used for the the data center as well? That's, can you elaborate on that pretty much how, I mean I know, but for those who who um have not been involved in the in-depth and countless hours of conversations that we've had, um just if you could just elaborate on just a little bit more so so so they can understand that we have to do our our study anyway for the um data center to see whether or not our infrastructure can absorb something like that uh in conjunction with utilizing that portion or some of those portion of the total um assessment for CAMSA as well. So can you just just not too much, but just if I haven't if I haven't if I missed something, but I feel like I'm accurate.

Sharon Duca

Um

Sharon Duca

Yeah, basically we're trying to uh find the the intertwining between the two concepts in terms of uh demand on our infrastructure. So we would be looking at each component of infrastructure that would include utilities that are directly related to large uh users as well as our street network, stormwater network, um which those large facilities could also impact depending on how they're used with, uh like it was brought up about truck traffic earlier, those can have effects on our infrastructure. Um and trying to make sure it's focused enough so that depending on which uh we want to make sure the questions in the scope are clear enough so that we get the correct answers to both questions.

Roy Sudler, Jr.

And and my final comment um is we did also discuss uh with our meeting with uh Utilities Chairman Councilman Rocha about our some vulnerabilities of of our infrastructure and and for example like pavers, you know, that we are responsible for some of these pavers uh such as near Grey Grey Fox and and um some on Loockerman Street uh and that we don't have the the money for the pavers. I think that was that's what had led into our vulnerability as well. Can you speak just a little bit in regards to the vulnerabilities of our infrastructure for those who are listening?

Sharon Duca

Um well I think all aspects of our infrastructure regardless of the component, uh street, stormwater, water, sewer, electric, um a lot of things come into play, some of it being age um that requires some addressing, things could be undersized uh for future development, uh which is one of the reasons why the work is being proposed and under design for Loockerman Street downtown in general.

Sharon Duca

Um but some of the infrastructure also uh like with the pavers, sidewalks, curb, um those are things that um not only do we deal with those on our local streets, but there's many uh state roads that we are responsible for like on State Street and Loockerman Street. Um DelDOT takes care of the pavement from curb to curb, we're responsible for the storm drains and the brick network and curbs and concrete sidewalks. Um so there's a lot of aspects that we need to look at.

Sharon Duca

Um I think even the questions that were brought up earlier during the transportation projects, excuse me, regarding was it designed to meet the needs of what's using it now? So that's something that I think meets the needs of both the data center um proposal as well as our general uh infrastructure and what we're trying to look at in relationship to how they're used and what needs to be done.

Roy Sudler, Jr.

And in final, um Representative Lynn did uh unofficially um state that, you know, he would be able to pay for the infrastructure assessment uh in regards to um like the RFP uh for that study, the infrastructure study, he would be willing to help pay for it. I don't know if he can still the total cost. It sounded like he said the total cost, but I don't want to make a commitment on his behalf. We did have extensive discussion on that, but he did state that um in 2027 if he's reelected that he would be able to assist us in in getting our infrastructure proposal cost covered, so uh that would help absorb any of the costs that we may accrue um getting this uh assessment. I yield. Thank you, chair, for recognizing me.

David L. Anderson

Councilman Rocha, then uh Councilman Lewis.

Gerald L. Rocha, Sr.

Uh thank you, Mr. Chairman. Um who's responsible for the pavers on The Green and around the state occupied buildings in in the downtown on The Green area?

Sharon Duca

Um just to clarify, you're referring to Legislative Mall in that area?

Gerald L. Rocha, Sr.

Legislative Mall, correct.

Sharon Duca

Okay. Um the uh facilities uh through the state does a lot of effort down there, but they're they do ask for assistance from us on certain things. Um so it can also depend upon who's asking. DelDOT's usually pretty insistent that we need to take care of those things based upon the 1964 agreement and other agreements along those lines. Um so it kind of depends on exactly where it is and um what the extent of need is. Uh but the state's been dealing with a lot of with their renovations to buildings and that type of thing, they've been dealing with the brick areas.

Gerald L. Rocha, Sr.

Okay, thank you. And then um as far as the uh CAMSA proposal and implementation, do you think we have a Are we at a point where we might know when it could be implemented? Do you think it'll be ready for fiscal year '28, or you know, how far out are we uh from implementation of of some sort if we get the study and are able to make a determination?

Sharon Duca

Well, I think one thing we need to remember particularly with engineering or uh financial related studies, uh they can take a decent amount of time, and we're in uh competition with other municipalities for their services in general. Um so overall, based upon uh dealing with um firms on much or much smaller scopes, you know, it can take a couple months alone just for that, and this is a fairly extensive study that would need to be done. So, uh just the timing for the consultant themselves to do the work, um you know, we could be up to 6 months on that alone.

Gerald L. Rocha, Sr.

And then uh I know I missed the I think I missed one of the meetings when this was on the on the agenda before in reference to municipalities somewhere nationwide that might already be implementing. Did we Did we find out if there was anybody comparable to our city that uses this?

David L. Anderson

Permission to Dr. Sudler?

Gerald L. Rocha, Sr.

Granted.

Roy Sudler, Jr.

Thank you. Um not in regards to um the population size comparable to our city, but Seattle, Washington, um I could pull it up, but there's like four other municipalities, and I can get that to you, but it actually is in the proposal. Um it's in the proposal that I did a comparison analysis. Okay. Um but yeah.

Gerald L. Rocha, Sr.

I so I think I saw that, but we hadn't found anything yet

Roy Sudler, Jr.

In regards to our our our population population is sort of unique. We're we're like we're not huge, but, you know, we're small so it's relatively

Gerald L. Rocha, Sr.

And we have our own utilities and things of that nature, too.

Roy Sudler, Jr.

Oh, I didn't go I didn't go in depth like, you know, I sort of left that to the team, and that's what the engineer would what it says.

Gerald L. Rocha, Sr.

Okay. All right, thanks. Thank you. Thank you, Ms. Duca. I I yield at this time.

Roy Sudler, Jr.

I wish I could have the time to do that. That's all right. My apologies, but I yield.

David L. Anderson

And I would add that that um I can't see this it at all. It's a lot of moving parts and we actually uh get possible numbers, we're going to have to invite the stakeholders to the table, and there's going to have to be a a discussion or else if you think the uh the sprinkler uh debate came is something, wait until you try uh um, you know, something uh this different because uh you know, it So it there's going to have to be a a whole community discussion to uh is where, but um, but anyway, uh Councilman Lewis.

Brian E. Lewis

Yes, um I was going through the legal opinion with a fine-tooth comb, Ms. Duca, uh which I'm sure you did also, and um the last paragraph uh before the conclusion, uh it starts with a particular vulnerability on this test. Um if you go a couple sentences down, it says, "strain that the affected properties place on other areas of the city's infrastructure." Did you provide that to our city solicitor, that information, or

Sharon Duca

Uh regarding whether there's studies or not? No, I didn't provide him that.

Brian E. Lewis

Okay. So that wasn't provided to him, so that's basically I guess what his synopsis is, because it wasn't provided, he's basically saying that um, "I'm not sure if there are studies that support this," so he's basically I guess taking a position um because there aren't, he's not in favor?

Sharon Duca

Well, when I did talk to him after the fact, uh I know his his biggest concern as you referenced in here was about uh tax-exempt parcels only, because um and I think that maybe part of what he's referring to here is about users of a system should all be paying towards that service. Um we just don't have uh specific studies at this point, which is why we would need to uh get one done.

Brian E. Lewis

Oh, understood. So you didn't provide any like uh examples from your perspective?

Sharon Duca

No.

Brian E. Lewis

Okay, that that's what I was kind of getting at. Um I I mean, you know, um I think one of the problems that we're probably going to face in the future is uh we have to get like Councilman Anderson said, all stakeholders involved, and particularly um our state legislature. Um but in hindsight, you know, we we can't go on um because we have a revenue problem right now as you're aware in the city, so we can't go on in, you know, status quo, so um I think, you know, this is definitely a start and a good proposal to move things forward. Um it's not going to be a quick fix um because we have to again get all the stakeholders involved and uh we also uh have to uh at first implement the study. So um I guess at this juncture just just move forward on your end. That's all I have.

David L. Anderson

Council President Neil.

Fred A. Neil

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Uh CAMSA is like a cat with nine lives. It clearly establishes that with 45% of Dover properties not taxable, the burden on our taxpayers is heavier than other municipalities for all the services we provide. The presentation itself has the flash and dash that would cost a fortune to produce if it was not produced by our own Councilman Roy Sudler. I thought that after the analysis provided by a city solicitor Dan Griffith, CAMSA was being shelved by its sponsors.

Fred A. Neil

I requested the clerk's office to provide you with copy of Dan's report, and the old news man in me gives me the feeling that this resurrection at this time seems to have a political overtone because it's valuable to a supporting candidate whether it passes or fails. I will apologize in advance if I've offended anyone. Of course the capital city of Dover, Delaware has an excessive burden that the pilot programs including the one from the state doesn't fully cover. Certainly the non-taxable properties do not cover their fair share even with the fees for usage.

Fred A. Neil

Knowingly tossing this to the state legislature for approval of a charter change is flies in the face of reason. The attacks on this fire sprinklers in new housing units and the safety intersection proposal will be tiny to the attacks on the city faces when state the state, colleges, medical facilities, Kent County, federal government, and HUD listed on pages 17 through 20 fight back. That fight will be directed to us and directly to every state legislature. Even the suggested grants, the means of paying the fees for institutions can be offset by the cost, are cringeworthy under the current POTUS and his administration.

Fred A. Neil

Will a complaint uh that CAMSA will cause uh uh uh CAMSA will cause healthcare costs to increase, tuition to rise? I don't know.

Fred A. Neil

Even the work that has been required from staff to support CAMSA with actual dimensions of buildings and to be required to determine what fees will be uh uh be taking away staff from things that can be better used for other tasks, and we heard tonight about the RFP and the possibility of having it uh work uh sent out and it still be uh their their their problem uh nothing to compare when they're requested to defend CAMSA conclusions when legally challenged. For the record, here is the conclusion of the counselor's the solicitor's legal report. Conclusion, quote:

Fred A. Neil

"CAMSA represents a regulatory fee spre- framework with meaningful fee-like attributes, including non-ad valorem metrics, explicit earmarks, segregation, and articulated service nexus. Nevertheless, there are certain vulnerabilities to the proposal. By the way of example, since the impacted properties already pay their fair share of infrastructures related to electric, water, and sanitary sewer, in the absence of data connecting the fees directly to the burden placed on the city by the remaining infrastructure services by these properties may lead the conclusion that CAMSA lacks the proportional and nexus factors that a court would apply.

Fred A. Neil

This legal opinion is based on the information available today. We reserve the right to supplement or amend this legal opinion as more information becomes available. Very truly yours, Daniel A. Griffith." And that's end quote. What his conclusion implies is we'll face legally fees with no guarantee that we can win. To my under-

Fred A. Neil

standing staff has been asked even though the council has not agreed to support CAMPSA, I think it should be prudent to treat CAMPSA as we do other proposals and vote as a council to refer it to staff or not in this case. I think we need to wait until after the November election, elections, to discuss this with legislators representing Dover as to their thoughts as to whether a charter change needed for CAMPSA or if it has a chance of passage and that will take the city politics out of the equation. I move to hold the strategy session on CAMPSA with members of the General Assembly representing Dover before the staff resumes the requested research. The reason for it, because of the financial situation that we are basically uh facing at this time. And that is a motion.

Gerald L. Rocha, Sr.

Is there a second to the motion?

Tricia K. Arndt

I'll I'll second, but I do have discussion.

Gerald L. Rocha, Sr.

Motion's been made and seconded. Uh uh and uh the motion is, uh just going to repeat it to make sure we've got it, have it right, and that is that the the motion is that the the CAM- that we...

Fred A. Neil

...meet with the members of the General Assembly representing Dover before staff resumes uh any requested research. It does not stop a thing.

Gerald L. Rocha, Sr.

All right. All right, thank you. And it's been seconded by Councilwoman Arndt.

Tricia K. Arndt

Thank you for recognizing me. So I I didn't write an essay, so this is going to be disjointed, and I'm just throwing some thoughts out there. Um I wanted to hear how the proposal had changed um after reading the the legal opinion. I do agree that I think it's it's premature to look to an RFP to start quantifying those impacts. The legal opinion laid out multiple issues, and and one was just just the the nexus and proportionality piece of it, which would be addressed through this analysis of of what the impacts would be from certain types of tax-exempt properties. So the issue was that you couldn't just say of a certain square footage would equal this cost um to the city. You had to look at the the use and get more specific um so that what the property was paying for was was what they were actually impacting the city, the cost of the city. So I think the RFP looking at that would would get to a more specific cost, which might address that issue. Although I do wonder if, like before we even before we even get to that, the other legal concerns would have to be addressed: um whether or not we have the authority to do it's a tax on tax-exempt properties, there's those issues are are outlined in the solicitor's letter. Um whether needing a charter change and then having legislators supportive of that, I think that would certainly be a a first step to see if we can move it forward. And then I was thinking if this were ultimately to be successful, and we were able to to implement and then get revenue from these tax-exempt properties, then all municipalities within the state would also pursue the same avenue to do the same, and so nonprofits throughout the state would be subject to fees wherever they're located. And the burden that would put on those nonprofits that are providing services, uh not only here in Dover, but but statewide. So those are just some of my thoughts and concerns related to the proposal. Um I think there's more work that would need to be done, and I think having that conversation with the legislators to determine if they would even support a charter change, and my gut feeling is that they would not um based on those reasons and the impact to the nonprofits, and to state properties. Of course, let's not forget that. Um it's almost as if they would be voting against their own um self-interest. Um so anyway, those are my thoughts. I yield.

Gerald L. Rocha, Sr.

Thank you. Um any I'll I'll get right over to you, Dr. Sudler. Just wanted to check in with our online members to see if they had anything. Comments? I don't see any. Dr. Sudler?

Roy Sudler, Jr.

Uh thanks for recognizing me, and thank you uh Councilwoman Arndt for your feedback and and your thoughts. Um you know, CAMPSA and how we get to the actual uh cost uh would be a technical engineering uh mathematical um process. And that's why we would need RFP for the engineer to do a total assessment of our infrastructure costs, which not only benefits CAMPSA, but it also benefits the data center. So you're going to have to do uh a infrastructure assessment, period, for the data center, which I do believe that we had sort of mentioned in our previous meeting uh when we talked about the 18-month moratorium. We talked about getting um information how it would uh impact our our infrastructure and how our constituents would absorb the cost. Um and we took the actual tax-exempt out of the equation and moved it to all um entities, and this is not a um this is not a tax. This is an infrastructure fee very similar to our public safety fee. So it's it's not a tax. A lot of people, you know, think, "Oh, it's a disguised tax." No, it's not a disguised tax because it's only viewed, and it's and this case law, it's in the packet, um case law has demonstrated that it's only viewed as a disguised tax if you take the money that's supposed to be for an infrastructure fee, and you put it in a general funds, and you use it outside the restricted um infrastructure um guidelines. So that's when it becomes like uh a tax. You know, people perceive it as a tax, a disguised tax. But this is like an infrastructure fee, uh which is very similar to the public safety fee. Uh with the public safety fee, we didn't have to have a charter change, we had the home rule. Uh we have our own governance. If we can validate that the the cost of the infrastructure, uh the ongoing regulatory cost is justifiable, and we're putting it into an account specifically to to address our needs and our demands for infrastructure, then it's untouchable. And there's case law, not only in the packet, but there's other case law outside of the packet I've provided. And and I showed both, the pros and the cons. If you don't use the money specifically for uh restricted infrastructure fee, then you will be dinged, and it will be looked and, you know, there's Supreme Court, there's rulings on that right now. Um but New Castle is New Castle is doing it right now. Um also uh Seattle, Washington is doing it right now with the gross square footage. And all this is all this is inside the packet. Um so and when I spoke with the the solicitor yesterday, and I expressed to him, I said, "I understand that there's concerns, uh legality concerns. However, there are case laws that sustains, that substantiates that what we want to do or what CAMPSA is proposing uh is legal as long as you don't go outside the scope of the restrictions." Which is: if you get money, whatever money you get, you don't put it in the general fund, you don't use it for anything other than what it's supposed to be. It's in like a lockbox account specifically for infrastructure. Um so that that's what addresses that matter. Um this is not by far um ready to be implemented tomorrow, and I do agree with that. This isn't this is uh this is to stimulate the discussion, to generate um some feedback, and we, like you say, we need more of the stakeholders, and I think we have some stakeholders here tonight. Um but it is our duty to, uh actually it's policy number one in our budget, to find and develop diversified ways of generating income for the city of Dover, the capital. And and right now um our biggest concern, like, is is infrastructure, you know? And how are we going to pay for infrastructure? We can't continue to allow our constituents um to absorb the cost for mega footprint institutions who are growing, growing, growing, uh...

Gerald L. Rocha, Sr.

Can I um uh interrupt for just a moment, sir?

Roy Sudler, Jr.

Yes.

Gerald L. Rocha, Sr.

Dick, if you want to have a seat while we discuss, uh please. Uh please continue, sir.

Roy Sudler, Jr.

Um, you know, so, yeah, that might be, yeah.

Roy Sudler, Jr.

So, um you know, it's it's it's as long as we as long as we use it what the purpose is and and within the guidelines, then we're we won't be in legal harm's way. It's a it's a source of revenue, and the city of Dover is growing, and we cannot, our taxpayers cannot, our constituents cannot afford to keep going up utility and tax hikes because, you know, we have responsibilities for infrastructure. So I have more to say, but I will I will yield.

Gerald L. Rocha, Sr.

Any member uh Uh yes, uh Mrs. Arndt.

Tricia K. Arndt

Thank you. So just to to follow up on that. Um so one of the the pieces within your proposal I thought was providing money back to um constituents on their electric bill. So that to me does not seem like that would be a permissible way to use the funds based on the solicitor's opinion.

Roy Sudler, Jr.

Can I speak to that?

Roy Sudler, Jr.

Okay. Thank you. And thank you for bringing that up. So actually it wouldn't be like actually giving the individual money back. What it would do is when we have an increase or surplus, that means we don't have to keep going up, that saves them money each year. So in other words, we're not going to physically reallocate and give them money, it's going to indirectly save them money, which is going to give them money back in their pocket. We're not going to cut them a check, but the fact that we don't have to go up and take any more hikes is going to save them money. Yes.

Roy Sudler, Jr.

Thank you again, I appreciate that.

Gerald L. Rocha, Sr.

Going to recognize members of the public. Um Mr. Faust.

William Faust

Council President Neil, William Faust from Dover. Council President Neil, you always mention it's politically activated or this-

Gerald L. Rocha, Sr.

Could could you please uh direct your remarks through the chair? Thank you.

William Faust

Well, I'm addressing through the chair the public comments because it's what he just said, so I'm addressing it to the chair. He came out and said it's politically motivated or whatever, and that we have 40-some-odd percent a nonprofit. I have only heard Dr. Sudler come up with a plan or an idea. No one on this council has come up with another idea. Council President Neil likes to shoot everything down. What is your suggestion, sir? You're highly educated, highly motivated. What's your suggestion to bring more revenue in? Stop shooting things down. And why don't you answer the question? The bottom line is you had three years to address it. You haven't brought revenue into this city. What are you doing? You keep on hearing, "Oh, we got people investing." Every year when it comes time for the budget, you're passing on things to the public. We hear things like, "It's the cost of doing business. It was beyond our control." Citizens are getting tired of hearing it. Then you say, "Oh, the downtown partnership is going to help us. People will spend money." If you look down at the people of the city of Dover, they're not going to have disposable income to spend any shops in Dover, downtown Dover, anywhere around here. And from what a person said last night, people are having a hard time buying houses in Dover. Let's listen to the professionals are saying. The system is broken. So if you're going to knock things down, come up with a solution to fix it, sir.

Gerald L. Rocha, Sr.

Uh any uh please come forward. I can't quite see who's back there. There we go.

Bonnie

Good evening. My name is Bonnie, I just want to put out there I agree with Dr. Sudler. He is the only one that I have seen since I moved in this city come up with something to try to help the people. Everyone in this room, I've not once heard you say nay to nothing that goes on. I don't know about y'all, but I eat all American meals every day. All right, you eat ramen noodles. You go to college, you eat ramen noodles, cuz you can't afford anything when you pay for college. I agree with Sudler, and I agree with Fowler. Something needs to be done, and if this needs to be done, then I think we should put it through. Good job, Sudler. Well done.

Gerald L. Rocha, Sr.

Thank you. Any other uh please come Which one of you is first? Thanks.

Colleen Demaine

Colleen Demaine, City of Dover. Um, I want to put out there, I'm not okay with the data centers, but I am, however, good with the data collection for the information for tax purposes for uh partisans that aren't paying their portion and us constituents taking not only our portion, but their over. Um, I can't afford anymore. I can't afford my taxes going up anymore, and yes, I do have a daughter that is in college, and yes, you want to know what, I am paying for her to go to college, and yes, they need to pay their portion of their lights being on past school nights, or school hours when kids aren't there. That we need to start doing what we need to do, collecting the data of who's drawing more and what, and give a little bit of relief to us, and not to hand us a check, but anything that is right now and doesn't raise anymore is saving me money, which means I can go downtown to go to the little shops and buy the little bracelets and everything else that my daughter's find cute and and adoring, and maybe even go to a little cafe or something and get a cup of coffee without going, "Oh gee, I've got to pay my taxes." I mean, any little relief whatsoever, and a data study saying, "Okay, you need to pay 25% more of this because this is, you know,

Colleen Demaine

you know, taking a little off the constituents." And yeah, it's not the full amount that you need to owe, but it's a little more than which, you know, they lay off of the rest of us, because we can't afford anymore. And I live in a neighborhood of elderly people who are on Social Security, and maybe on a pension, and I'm just an individual who has two incomes coming into my house and and eight children to put food on the table for, and I have to sometimes fight between, okay, what are we going to eat for dinner tonight, maybe it's Oodles of Noodles, maybe it's, you know, spaghetti and meatballs. I also have a a medical condition that I have either to go electric bill or medical supplies, hmm, which one? I don't want to be able to, you know, have to make a choice or a decision. I want to pay what I owe. I want to see my tax money go to where it needs to go and not somewhere else. So any relief that you can give any constituents in any district,

Colleen Demaine

we could put money to help other people that need it the most, and I don't mean billion-dollar companies and and, you know, builders that come in here and and start a little tiny business, then it grows and it grows and it grows, and we're still paying for that little tiny business along with the extension of their business, and they pay nothing. I'm tired of putting money out that I shouldn't have to put out, because I'm not using it, I'm using what I'm using, and I'm paying twice as much. We need to help us out, and and we need to find a way to collect data to put it out there and go, "Okay, well, this is how much we have to increase you in order to relieve 50, 60 people." That's If that's what it has to be, that's what it has to be. Thank you.

Gerald L. Rocha, Sr.

Thank you.

Gerald L. Rocha, Sr.

Name name and town for the record, please.

Hassan Najjar

Good evening. I'm Hassan Najjar, director of the Biggs Museum, um also a Dover resident at 30 Hazlettville Road. Um I appreciate council's efforts to address Dover's financial challenges. However, I have serious concerns about this proposed um Capital Area Municipality Sustainability Act uh and its inclusion of nonprofit arts and cultural institutions. I'm not going to speak to uh our hospitals or our city or or state uh government in this, but speaking directly for for nonprofit uh arts and culture institutions. First, tax exemptions are not a financial privilege, it's a recognition of public benefit. Um organizations like ours serve their communities: we preserve history, educate children, attract visitors, contribute to the economic development of of Dover. These services are why our institutions receive that tax-exempt status. And calling this a tax calling this tax a fee does not change its substance. Uh it's a compulsory annual assessment on otherwise a tax-exempt uh organizations designed to generate municipal revenue. Changing its name doesn't resolve the fundamental question of whether this is taxation. Um Camden-Wyoming Sewer and Water Authority versus Town of Camden, 2017, uh stated exactly that, so that that would be something we'd probably want to look into when we're thinking about litigation. Um second, this proposal fundamentally mis- understands how cultural institutions operate. Um the legislation identifies directly the the Delaware Ag Museum uh as potentially owing owing uh quarter million uh annually in taxes. Um that's an extraordinary obligation uh for a nonprofit museum. And that proposal suggests that we could use federal and state cultural grants to offset those costs. Um number one, those grants are a gamble, you're not guaranteed to receive those um from anyone. Uh and then number two, um those dollars are not permitted to be used for items like this, they're for programs, um you know, for for kids, for families, uh for your community. They they're not used to pay those types of fees. Um lastly, I want to address how we're approaching this issue. I don't like coming before council...

Public Commenter

um to complain without offering solutions. And and frankly, a 3-minute statement from me to you without an opportunity for a response, that's not a dialogue. It isn't a conversation. It doesn't allow us to ask questions. It doesn't allow us to challenge ideas, to develop any kind of creative solutions together. It's put me in the position of being uh reactive instead of proactive. And let's be honest, the underlying issue here is not, hey, how do we tax nonprofits? It's how the city addresses uh a city budget challenge. And that's a conversation we should be having. Um I was heartened earlier when uh you brought up uh, we're going to have to take this to, you know, the stakeholders that are listed in this document. Why do we have to wait till the tail end of that to to bring stakeholders in? Um if Dover is serious about finding solutions, why can't we host a facilitated town hall where we bring, you know, people in this room, the people in that document together uh, residents, businesses, nonprofits, city leadership, give us an opportunity to ask questions, to exchange ideas, to work collaboratively towards solutions instead of giving us something to react to without our input. That's how we should approach challenges by inviting our community to help solve them. Thank you.

David L. Anderson

Thank you very much. Any comments? All right. Uh is is there any further discussion? Being none, I'm going to call uh the vote on the motion.

David L. Anderson

Uh all those in fa- uh sorry, discussion.

Tricia K. Arndt

Could Madam Clerk please uh restate the motion?

David L. Anderson

Madam Clerk.

City Clerk

I stole it off of our sheet. Um Mr. Neil moved that we meet with members of the General Assembly before staff resumes requested research.

David L. Anderson

Okay. Thank you.

David L. Anderson

Uh and yes, it Ye- yes, discuss-

Roy Sudler, Jr.

Just thank you for recognizing me. Thank you for recognizing me. So um so in in other words, um basically holding only any conversation, any uh motion staying to possibly have a motion to do an RFP for information for um uh infrastructure data. So basically, this would say we wouldn't be able to do any of that until after the election in which is November 2nd.

David L. Anderson

Uh well, that that's going to

Roy Sudler, Jr.

Or or till we speak to until we speak to um state representatives, which which is on their time.

David L. Anderson

Well, you're right. Which it looks like it would be the the state representatives, and that meeting would not happen until after uh well, I would say, till after the election is certified, which would be uh I believe uh November 5th. So, that'd be at least the 6th would be the soonest it could happen.

Roy Sudler, Jr.

Right. And and-

David L. Anderson

And uh and, of course, as you say, that's based on, you know, getting getting them together is um that it might have to be several meetings, quite frankly.

Roy Sudler, Jr.

Right. And and so my my major concern about that is if their schedule does not permit or if they choose to do use this as a delay tactic to not even have the conversation, then we will never even be able to move forward. And I don't agree with that because the simple fact that the that we have home rule. We can we If anything, we need to make the assessment which I believe we have the home rule to, based on the public public safety fee. Right? We didn't have to have a charter change, nor did we wait to to hear from state legislators in that manner. And it did, in fact, it did impact uh tax-exempt Delaware State University was also impacted by that. Right? So it did impact tax-exempt entities, and we did not have to wait and and and hear from state legislators on that public safety fee. Uh this is an infrastructure fee. So I I don't understand why we have to wait for the state when this is local municipalities. This is within our domain, our governance. Now, whether they support CAMSA or not, that's that remains to be discovered and seen. But I don't think moving forward with the discussion, or gathering or moving to vote to gather data, which we have to get anyway from for the data center, should be contingent upon that whether the state wants to meet with us or not, or who's going to be, you know, the next representative on the state level or not. I I think that's I don't think that's good business. They represent They don't wait for us when they make decisions. They don't wait for local uh government to assess how our constituents feel, and we are on the front line. Local government is on the front line. So, no. I'm not waiting on nobody.

David L. Anderson

Uh thank you. Uh Mrs. Arndt?

Tricia K. Arndt

Thank you. I I would just say that I don't see the harm in determining if an action is is legal and feasible before spending the money to collect data on how to implement it. So in my mind as a planner, you know, can you implement it before you determine how to implement it? Um and in terms of this particular action seeking an RFP, there's no way you're go- going to get an RFP out before um the elections and the elections are certified. Just the timeline that it would take to establish and develop an RFP and issue it. So it it it could be a moot point, but I do like the idea of gate engaging legislators and stakeholders sooner rather than later.

David L. Anderson

Mr. Chairman Councilman Council President Neil.

Fred A. Neil

Thank you, sir. Um first off, we need a charter change, do we not, in order to be if be able to implement this? Is that my understanding? So it's not up to us. If we need a charter change to do so, if the state legislature is not going to move forward, and the legislature is uh not not going to move forward, we can still go with CAMSA, it's just not going to get passed. So, the value of this discussion really is the desperate situation that the city faces. And that's the real value of it, that we need help, and we need other sources of income because even though we have DDP and we have um the area around the airport that's producing additional income and will continue to do so, uh the fact is that only 45% of our people of our uh our our of of, you know, 45% of of the uh nonprofits aren't paying, and now we're spreading this thing out. We've heard from one person who said no. This is so we're we're nonprofit. When this comes up, you're going to have a very hard time convincing the members of the legislature if we need a charter change. My understanding is that we do. And that's the reason to get the feel of our legislators to make sure that they're going to support us. If we don't want them, if they say they want are not going to do it, and if we still want to pass the resolution, we can do that. And as I said, I think there's a little politics that's being played at this time. I yield.

David L. Anderson

Uh thank you. The uh I Thank you. Uh Councilman Rocha.

Gerald L. Rocha, Sr.

Yeah, I I agree with some of the things Mr. Neil said. I'll disregard the uh political statement, but um I I'll agree with having the conversation, just like Councilwoman Arndt. I just don't agree with the with the motion uh because I think that the process should start to move forward until we hit a brick wall. So I I don't think we should halt anything based on a motion. Uh nothing's going to be resolved before the election, like Councilwoman said Councilwoman Arndt said. I don't think we need to take any action tonight. You know what I mean? It's it's a little early for that. So I'm not going to support the uh the motion on the table right now. I yield.

David L. Anderson

Thank you. Uh Councilman Lewis.

Brian E. Lewis

Help me understand why we're bringing even this election into play. I think it's a moot matter, completely. That's my opinion. I mean, you know, whoever gets in gets in, okay, we're still going to have to deal with that particular representative. Uh and um you know, I I concur with Councilman Sudler with respect to, you know, when we initiated the public safety fee, we didn't have to get a charter change. None of this transpired. So, what's the difference? You know, what's the difference? We already have a public safety fee that's been initiated.

David L. Anderson

I think that fell.

Brian E. Lewis

I mean, all right, Ms. Sass left the room, but uh

David L. Anderson

Are you talking about for the um Yeah.

Brian E. Lewis

the EMS?

Brian E. Lewis

For the EMS and um Yeah. I mean, everybody's paying for that, nonprofits and all. So, I mean, I'm I'm not for the motion. And, you know, and I'm sick and tired of uh Councilman Neil saying, "We're playing politics." He's playing politics.

David L. Anderson

And uh it's and uh now it's Oh, okay. Please.

Tricia K. Arndt

Just one one last point. And to clarify that the question about whether or not we would need a a charter change, it's in the solicitor's letter that there would need to be an amendment to Section 49A of the charter, so that that's where that's coming from. Um so just to let you know. Um And we get questioned a lot on lawsuits and and how we get in trouble. And I think when you have advice from your solicitor, we should follow it. Um so I'm just going based off my concerns were largely driven by the analysis from the solicitor. No disrespect to you. Thank you for putting forward an idea. I just want to make sure that all the questions are asked. I don't think it's shooting an idea down to ask the questions that need to be asked. And when our solicitor frames those questions for us, then I'm going to ask them. I yield.

David L. Anderson

Thank Thank you, and I And and I think that's the response to us that statement being made not that not to you, but to the general uh statement being made because that as we all believe asking if the tough questions are going to be asked, and they better be asked in here. And I'm sure everybody agrees with that, right? Uh Dr. Sudler?

Roy Sudler, Jr.

Uh thank you, Mr. Chair. And I And I thank you. I thank you. I thank Neil. I thank everyone. And I do believe we need to have a workshop, and uh through um opposition and comes critical thinking. Critical thinking becomes, you know, new, innovative ways of resolving complex problems. And that's where I think the spirit where we need to be. I concur with Councilman Lewis.

Roy Sudler, Jr.

Um no one has any political agenda other than to serve, um and I don't think anyone should be ostracized if they do have a political agenda that is to serve the public in the best interest of the public. Um for the record, I've I've always served. I have 22 years with the city of Dover, 22 years, 11 as council person and 11 on council committees. I started young. I've been serving. I'm still serving, and I will always serve with or without a title cuz that's who I am. I yield.

David L. Anderson

Uh there is um It It thanks to me that if um quite frankly, if um we believe that it was illegal, I I um uh City Manager Duca and I would have definitely pulled the plug on it. Uh reading from the solicitor's opinion, he says succinctly, "It is my opinion the proposed legislation can withstand legal challenges so long as the city can establish uh that, regardless of the label being placed on the charges, the fees are proportional to the additional strain the affected entities place on the city infrastructure, i.e., proportionality, and two, there is a reasonable relationship between the charges the city uses uh use of the fees generated by the charges and access." And uh that is uh yeah and that that's why I raised I had those concerns and raised a lot of those questions uh right from the beginning, and uh yeah, and those are questions that that um haven't been fully answered yet, but uh but, my view, we information.

David L. Anderson

But I'm not with for um just uh putting that spending money for that information. However, in my humble opinion, we need to do it anyway for three reasons. Uh one, we already passed, and it is law now, that we are going to do a study like this because of the data center moratorium. Um so we may as well, while we're doing this, uh make it broader, so we can have a better understanding of everything because once we understand our our cost inputs, uh we can do better for our budgeting uh, you know, in in all levels in all funds. Uh, number two, I I look at it as as uh once we have this information, maybe we can finally get PILOT fairness. If they won't do CAMSA, I'm okay with that. But then let's talk. Uh let's talk other issues. And let let's talk about why are we getting 1/3 uh, less than a third, uh for PILOT when Wilmington gets 100%? Uh why don't we get PILOT on uh on other state-affiliated properties? Uh that I mean, we don't get it at all on that. Um we we have to have a discussion. Um and that discussion is better had with information and data that can't be refuted. Uh so whether we uh I'm not married to any particular proposal, and I'm not opposing any particular proposal. Uh but I but I see the value that this proposal has generated when it comes to getting the information. And that information can be used in a lot of ways that I think will benefit the city. Uh, in the third way, uh when we're doing this, we'll actually have uh certainly more information when it comes to stormwater and stormwater fee infrastructure.

David L. Anderson

So, what I I mean for instance, uh one way that we can approach this if this is not the way we go would be to have a stormwater infrastructure fee for 50,000 above. Um you know, there uh as well, you know, which the state has already um amended the law to give us the authority to do.

David L. Anderson

Uh and, you know, so so there's so more There's a lot of different ways that you can can look at things. Um

David L. Anderson

that that's all can look at things. I think part of the pressure's going to be relieved within the next 2 years because of the current build-outs. For instance, like Garrison, uh which will bring hundreds of millions of dollars of infrastructure in place. Uh we will be getting, most likely within 2 years, uh a net of 8 to within 2 to 3 years, we'll be getting a net of at least $8 to $10 million from just from Garrison, which is going to help out tremendously. It turns around our entire fiscal picture.

David L. Anderson

And that's been something It doesn't happen overnight. We start before any of us were in council, uh 20 years ago. And then we accelerated, of course, once we came on, um some the members here. Um uh but it is um but anyway, that's Well, um that's that's my view of it, uh and vote your conscience.

David L. Anderson

Uh all in favor?

Fred A. Neil

Aye.

Tricia K. Arndt

Aye.

David L. Anderson

All opposed?

Brian E. Lewis

No.

Roy Sudler, Jr.

No.

Gerald L. Rocha, Sr.

No.

David L. Anderson

Uh had any online?

David L. Anderson

Uh well, it doesn't matter. Having uh failed to receive six votes, the motion fails.

David L. Anderson

Uh the uh yes, uh Dr. Sudler?

Roy Sudler, Jr.

I move that we um authorize the city manager to continue to orchestrate or put together or continue her work and her team's work, the city manager and assistant city manager and her team and the treasurer, to continue to do the work of the public to put together the criteria needed to zoom in and focus on the infrastructure um assessment criteria for the for the Capital of Delaware in which the engineer would use uh for both projects, the data center and CAMSA.

Roy Sudler, Jr.

I will rescind my motion.

Council Member

I concur.

David L. Anderson

All right. Thank you. So, we'll found- so, we'll just continue. So, is there- continue as is. Um, is there any other business for the leg- Yep. Dr. Sudler.

Roy Sudler, Jr.

In sum, in sum I just want to say thank you. Thank everyone, even thank the Council President for his opposition, um, because it forces critical thinking and know that my only intention and- and I'm sure all of our only intentions is to help serve the city better, um, regardless of how we do it or how it's viewed. I- I think all of us here to help serve city better. So, thank you for coming out. And hopefully, um, Councilman Anderson, um, if we could think about doing a workshop for the stakeholders as, um, the director of Biggs Museum, Hassan, has- has- has brought forth where it be unlimited time to- to voice their concerns and their opinion as well as the constituents. I think that's very important and imperative in- in serving the public. And so, um- I'm- you know, if we can work on that...

David L. Anderson

I think- I concur.

Roy Sudler, Jr.

I think that'd be great. And sooner than later.

David L. Anderson

I think we can, uh, definitely achieve that. We may have a, uh, maybe we'll have a- a special meeting, uh, just dedicated towards this again maybe in December. Um, and just, uh- and- and invite the, uh, invite people pro and con and- and, uh, because that do- one thing even if we don't go this way, there could be, uh- um, if we build, uh, a committee- because we have not been able to achieve on our own, for instance, PILOT fairness.

Roy Sudler, Jr.

Right.

David L. Anderson

Maybe, um, maybe, uh, if all of us, if this whole community goes to the General Assembly, uh, united, maybe we can achieve PILOT fairness, then we don't have to have this discussion. Um, that's- but to do that, we need help. Anyway, that's...

Roy Sudler, Jr.

And- and- and also I want to say that, um, when we do have that meeting, I will provide food for that evening. And you know everything's gourm- yeah, I'm cooking. All right, so for real. All right.

David L. Anderson

Then maybe I want that meeting in November. [laughter]

Roy Sudler, Jr.

No, I'm- I'm- I'm- I'ma step it up. I'm going to give you all some ribs, you know, and...

Andre M. Boggerty

None for you, Ms. Arndt.

Roy Sudler, Jr.

I know the Council President likes the ribs, so you know, I'll do the ribs for him.

Council Member

I'll bring the greens.

Andre M. Boggerty

The- the naysayers get no food, Ms. Arndt.

Roy Sudler, Jr.

Whatever- whatever you want. It'll be a buffet style, Sudler buffet style.

David L. Anderson

I- I don't think- I don't think tough questions are criticisms. I think they're- they're either going to make the proposal better, or they're going to give us a better direction. One of the two. And I- I think, uh, I think no one should be hesitant to- to voice concerns, because, um, uh, that's part of, uh, what makes it work. I'd rather hear concerns now than in the courtroom, if something could have been addressed and- and changed or whatever. Anyway, that's- well, if, uh- okay. For real this time, second? Without objection, we stand adjourned, and turn it back over to Council President.

Fred A. Neil

And this Council session is now adjourned.