Transcript: Regular City Council Meeting

Robin R. Christiansen

limited to three minutes. Council is prohibited from taking action since it's not on the official agenda. However, this may be scheduled as such items at regular

City Clerk

It's not. I'm having trouble recording. Um, sorry for the delay. Mr. William G. Faust, Jr.

William G. Faust, Jr.

Good evening, everyone. My name is William Faust. I live in Dover, Delaware. Um, I guess it's on my mind. I'm approved to choose close communications. You guys are doing a terrible job. Over the weekend, I sent a detailed email to all the mayor, mayor and all the council members. Some of you might not have liked it, some may. Out of all the people representing this room, Councilman Lewis gave me a detailed conversation per my thoughts. Councilwoman Hall at least acknowledged that she got my email. No one else did. Look behind me. If your actions or lack of actions caused all this, if you're trying to run for political office for mayor on policy or agenda you're trying to do, it's going to fail. President Council Neil, you keep on saying you want to hear people's comments and concerns and feelings, but that's not the place to answer them. However, you never answer questions unless someone's ego gets hurt, someone wants to do damage control, the news media is present, or uh you just want to make a point. Overall, you don't answer questions. And it's frustrating for the citizens when we ask a question to be answered, you never put it on the next agenda.

Public Commenter

example: change the charter to stop your raises each year automatically; having the uh public forum uh broadcast with the full meeting. How many times we got to ask? Private citizens are putting it on Facebook. If you have nothing to hide, do it. My recommendation is this, suggestion put into my email: if you don't have time to answer questions, have a town hall meeting where the mayor, full council, Mr. Hugg is present so you can address and answer questions of the citizens, not this cop-out, "Oh, we can't answer questions this time." You have the luxury, the only job I know you get paid for just showing up. You don't get paid for performance, because all these citizens here got hit with a 10% increase in our electric. Before that we got 2% raise in our taxes, for our square footage. We got an EMS fee. You keep on patting yourselves on the back, "Oh, we submitted a balanced budget." A balanced budget taking it out of the wallet of the citizens. A balanced budget is when you have coming in weekly, quarterly, monthly, and yearly, can we afford it? I asked this last meeting, when you rob Peter to pay Paul for the uh non-bargaining employees. You took the money from the jobs that were not uh filled. What happens if you fill those jobs? Oh, you plan on filling them, that means there's going to be a deficit. How are you going to pay for it next year? No one can give me an answer. No one's going to answer. I can tell you how: you're going to raise fees, you're going to raise our taxes. I predict you'll probably going to give us at least a 10% increase in taxes. No one has anything to say, but I'm the bad guy because I send an email. If you answer questions—

Fred A. Neil

Your time is up.

Public Commenter

you wouldn't have people out here getting upset.

City Clerk

Time's up.

Public Commenter

So look at yourselves. This is what the result is. Thank you for your time.

Fred A. Neil

Madam Clerk, next person who signed up.

City Clerk

The time will be on the screen, so you have three minutes just to let you know. It's not a loud timer. Laurie Alberts.

Laurie Alberts

Okay. Um, again, my name is Laurie Alberts. I'm kind of new to this, so what you're saying is--

City Clerk

Your address. We need your address.

Fred A. Neil

What is your address, please?

Laurie Alberts

My address is 444 North Swope Lane.

Fred A. Neil

Thank you.

Laurie Alberts

You're saying what's on here we can't talk about?

Fred A. Neil

You can talk, you have three minutes to talk to anything that you wish to talk about.

City Clerk

That's not on the agenda.

Laurie Alberts

If it's on the agenda, we can't talk about it though.

Fred A. Neil

It is not going to be voted on tonight.

Laurie Alberts

Okay.

Fred A. Neil

So you can talk about it now, and you can talk about it when it comes back.

Laurie Alberts

Okay.

Fred A. Neil

It's not on the agenda. In other words, there's no vote tonight on it.

Laurie Alberts

Okay, I'm going to just talk about what I came to talk about anyway.

Fred A. Neil

That's right.

Laurie Alberts

Okay. It's very simply fining homeless people for being in the median is about the dumbest idea. Again, they can't afford to live,

Public Commenter

That's why they're standing on the corner. All things considered, I don't like seeing them there either. But the city's resources cannot be spent with officers, what, ticketing people that are trying to panhandle? The money could be The time and energy could be spent much better than trying to get $10 out of a homeless person, and if they don't pay it, what are you going to do? Incarcerate them? I mean, it makes no sense. Okay? The money should be spent on, and the ordinance should be, that mental health, case managers, whatever, should be going out there to find out what their problem is. If they can't get an ID because they don't have proper paperwork to prove who they are to get an ID, then somebody should hand-walk them and fix it. So that way they can get services and a job, and not be standing on the corner. That's what I got to say. Thank you.

Public Commenter

So when I was homeless myself, I relied on the kindness of strangers on occasion because as I remind you, I was homeless. I had no resources, and I had no one to listen to me.

Robin R. Christiansen

Thank you. Madam Clerk.

Public Commenter

So I would recommend, as I sit in this room with people who are making it a point to ignore what they listen and see with their own eyes as they travel the world and the local towns around us, to listen to the people who they are leaving behind, thinking those people will go away.

City Clerk

Tyler Mock.

Tyler Mock

Good evening. My address is 401 Hatchery Road, Dover, Delaware. Born and raised in Delaware. So when somebody looks at me and tells me that they've been everywhere, and they've seen everything, they haven't seen my life.

Public Commenter

If the kitchen is on fire, it's an inconvenience, but deciding to paint the bedroom a different color because you like what that looks like and not like it's a kitchen doesn't solve the problem of the fire.

Public Commenter

And for all of you to sit here and clearly, repetitively not communicate with your constituents is a bold shame. And you should sit here and remark personally upon reflection on how to be better people and better representation of your constituency.

Public Commenter

you run for mayor because they still won't have stable housing. And we will be glad to remind you, both my organization, as well as other organizations. So I would ask that you reflect upon how you can be better to your constituents. Have a lovely evening.

Public Commenter

And to make a revenue source for folks that are literally clinging to life and the benefit of society to survive because you are failing them is shameful.

Public Commenter

And when you go to sleep at night, I want you to remind yourself that what you did as a failure to create that is your problem that you will have to face. And you will have to face it tomorrow because they still don't have stable housing, and you will have to do it next week because they still don't have stable housing, and you will have to do it if—

Robin R. Christiansen

Madam Clerk, the next person who has signed up.

City Clerk

I can't tell if it's Tim or Jim Stout.

City Clerk

Is it Tim? Sorry.

Tim Stout

No problem.

Tim Stout

My address is 599 Roberta Avenue. Uh my name is Tim Stout. I'm a citizen of Dover since 2017, 2018. Um I quite frankly find it really shameful that we're even considering the notion of fining people at their lowest and those who consider to help them. Um When I interned at a homeless shelter in 2022-2023, you know the one thing I did not hear people say? Dang, I really wish I was getting fined for this. I really wish I was being punished for this. Who is this helping? Gen- genuinely, who is this helping? I'd love to know. Is it for your own comfort? Are you uncomfortable with them being there? Do something. Genuinely. Do something about it. Give funding or resources. Help these people find resources. As many people I'm sure will tell you tonight, there is not enough resources already. Fund those res-

Public Commenter

resources, give them the resources, and make it accessible. None of these people want to be in this situation. I have yet to meet a person who has said, "I wanted this." So I quite frankly find it astonishing that we are still in the great year of our Lord 2025 saying, "Yes, let us punish the poor." This isn't even just punishment. This is when we are making these laws where you are fining someone, that's not a punishment, that's a tax. That's just another tax on these people who already have nothing. So, I will gladly come back here and congratulate you all when you decide to do something, fund all of these resources that have yet to get that funding. But until then, shame. I yield my time.

Robin R. Christiansen

Madam Clerk, uh next sign-up?

City Clerk

This is the last one in... This is the last one.

Public Speaker

as a follow-up to the 17th. So the Supreme Court Grants Pass ruling, criminalizing those that are trying to find a space to live.

Robin R. Christiansen

Okay. Basically, um we will start the meeting, regular meeting, uh and after, please wait. One more?

Public Speaker

Two days ago I was with a family member of mine who's been homeless for the past 10 to 15 years, trying to find them housing and talking through them about their days and seeing what spaces that they can feel comfortable in that they won't feel like someone's bothering them. Talking about churches, 24-hour diners, transportation centers, Amtrak centers, and, you know, I do my best, drop them off and pray that strangers will be be kind to them and be gentle to them and will show them grace.

City Clerk

Yeah, we can do one more. There's three more minutes.

Robin R. Christiansen

One more. And then we'll uh stay after the regular meeting so that you can all express your opinions.

Robin R. Christiansen

Madam Clerk, who's next?

City Clerk

Christopher Beardsley, maybe?

Christopher Beardsley

Name is Christopher Beardsley. Address: 253 Abigail Crossing, Townsend, Delaware. I wanted to speak on this ordinance...

Public Speaker

And I think about them everyday as I struggle to find them resources, as I struggle to work with the state, and I struggle to understand why people are even in this condition to begin with. But this is the world that we're living in, and I don't believe that this is acceptable, that this should have ever been acceptable. This ordinance is cruel, and it is ineffective. And rather than focusing on long-term solutions to homelessness and housing crisis, city seated leadership is willing to arrest and fine people for being poor. This is unacceptable.

Robin R. Christiansen

We will continue this meeting after the regular session is over.

Protesters

Hey, hey! Ho, ho! Punishing the poor has got to go! Hey, hey! Ho, ho! Punishing the poor has got to go! Hey, hey! Ho, ho! Punishing the poor has got to go! Hey, hey! Ho, ho! Punishing the poor has got to go!

Robin R. Christiansen

Thank you. Now I'll call on uh The uh meeting to order. We will continue this meeting after the regular session is over.

Robin R. Christiansen

I call this meeting to order and call upon the invocation by Elder Ellis B. Louden. Pastor Louden. Is—

City Clerk

Pastor Louden's here.

Robin R. Christiansen

Ah, Pastor Louden. Would you please provide an invocation for us?

Ellis B. Louden

Let us pray. Most gracious and eternal God, You are the unmoved mover in whom we live and move and have our being. We thank You because of who You are and who we are to You. Because of Your love is so high we can't get over it, so low we can't get under it, so wide...

Speaker 1

we can't get away from it.

Speaker 1

You sent prophets and teachers,

Speaker 1

and even Jesus himself,

Speaker 1

to teach us the way of truth.

Speaker 1

Jesus spent much of his time among the poor,

Speaker 1

among those who were oppressed,

Speaker 1

among those who were downtrodden.

Speaker 1

We thank you for that word that was in Jesus:

Speaker 1

"The Spirit of the Lord is upon me,

Speaker 1

because he has anointed me to preach good news to the poor."

Speaker 1

And so, oh God, as we struggle in our society with a crisis that is nationwide,

Speaker 1

we pray, oh God, that you would give us a heart of reason and compassion.

Speaker 1

That in all of our doing, we will do that which will glorify your name.

Speaker

We ask it in your name's sake. Amen.

Speaker 1

We pray, oh God, for the mayor, the council.

Multiple Speakers

Amen.

Fred A. Neil

I call on Councilman David Anderson for the pledge to the flag.

Speaker 1

We pray for this community.

David L. Anderson

I pledge allegiance to the Flag of the United States of America, and to the Republic for which it stands, one Nation under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all.

Speaker 1

For hard decisions that must be made,

Speaker 1

but they must be made in order to enhance the life of each and every one of your children created in your image.

Speaker 1

So we come tonight calling upon you

Public Commenter

Jesus was homeless, and he required other people—

Speaker 1

because you are the only one.

Fred A. Neil

That's out of order. We have before you the this evening's agenda. I'll entertain a motion for its adoption.

Speaker 1

Just like you loved in the beginning, you love now and even forever more.

Julia M. Pillsbury

Pillsbury moves to adopt the agenda.

Tricia K. Arndt

Second.

Fred A. Neil

Second by Councilwoman Arndt. All in favor, please say aye.

Multiple Speakers

Aye.

Fred A. Neil

Any opposed? Hearing none, the agenda is adopted. Now, have approval of a motion for the approval of the consent agenda.

Brian E. Lewis

Mr. Neil.

Fred A. Neil

Yes, sir.

Brian E. Lewis

I'm requesting that item number 14 be removed from the consent agenda, proposed ordinance 2025-21, amending chapter 106, traffic and vehicles, article 3, stopping, standing, and parking, by adding section 106-39 pedestrian safety. I'm requesting it be removed from the consent agenda for questions.

Fred A. Neil

I'm denying it because we do not have an agenda, we do not have an ordinance promised, we do not have an ordinance promised. We will bring it back.

Brian E. Lewis

Point of order. Point of order, Mr. President. I have the right to have it pulled for discussion.

Public Commenter

Stop hiding!

Unidentified Speaker

Please ... stands back for introduction ...

Brian E. Lewis

I request a ruling from our city solicitor.

City Solicitor

Sure. Thank you, Councilman Lewis. Uh, my understanding is that there is no ordinance to be discussed. My understanding is that there was a draft ordinance that was considered at the Committee of the Whole, but the decision made by the Committee of the Whole was to refer it back to the committee. So, um, in fact, it's my understanding that's the reason it was pulled from the agenda is that there is no ordinance to be considered.

Brian E. Lewis

Mr. Solicitor, it is on the agenda, though, and I have every right, okay, to pull something from the consent agenda to ask questions. I wasn't at that meeting, and I have the right to ask questions.

City Solicitor

I think you have the right to put to a vote if the Council wants to pull it from the, uh, consent agenda, um, Council can, but one council member cannot determine what the agenda is.

Roy Sudler, Jr.

Second by Sudler.

Brian E. Lewis

I make a motion. I make a motion that is removed from the consent agenda for discussion.

Fred A. Neil

Okay, we have a motion on the floor. Is there any discussion?

Fred A. Neil

Yes, Councilman Anderson.

David L. Anderson

Thank you. Um, this has been uh... I I um, I, with all due respect, uh, I believe that a motion to remove from consent agenda is valid with a single member because that, a consent agenda is something that requires unanimous consent. Um, so the motion um that uh the council made, I believe, uh as a point of order is a proper one.

Unidentified Speaker

I don't think so.

Fred A. Neil

Any additional question?

Unidentified Speaker

It was referred back.

David L. Anderson

If we do want to vote, I we'd vote in favor because I believe on principle, even though I...

Brian E. Lewis

tell them uh not particularly, I agree with this, that it be held in committee and everybody will have a chance to come to committee and give their input uh which is the which is the whole reason why I wanted to held, so that there would be time for public input.

Unknown Female Public Speaker

It's the solicitors rules, right? So

Andre M. Boggerty

Well Council Council decides what's on the agenda. It's not up to individuals to decide what's on the agenda.

Fred A. Neil

Yes, but- Councilman uh Sudler-

Unknown Female Public Speaker

Okay, but the public should be able to hear what's on the agenda. Point of order. Point of order.

Fred A. Neil

Councilman Sudler, please.

Brian E. Lewis

Point of order. Point of Point of order, Mr. President.

Fred A. Neil

Yes, sir.

Brian E. Lewis

We Being pointed out with a point of order, excuse me, I have the I have the floor, thank you.

Fred A. Neil

Yes, continue.

Brian E. Lewis

Thank you. Thanks um a I would ask that members of the public please remember you had your time, now it's our turn. Number two, you have more than that. Number two, whoever cheeks that the opposite of what I said. The fact what I said was that he had a right to um to have separated as a separate item.

Unknown Female Public Speaker

No, we didn't get our time! No, we didn't!

Roy Sudler, Jr.

and we have our constituents that are here to speak to the matter. I think it would be disingenuous um if we didn't open

Tricia K. Arndt

Can I respond?

Tricia K. Arndt

It wasn't pulled off. It was referred back to staff for edits and to um make the changes that were suggested during CCW. So it is going to be reintroduced with the edits, so we don't even have it on the agenda. It it didn't go through to first

Fred A. Neil

Okay. Councilman Sudler.

Roy Sudler, Jr.

Uh thank you, uh Council President Neil, for recognizing me. Um, I do understand that the item was, I guess, pulled off, but it doesn't reflect that here. And because it doesn't reflect that here,

Tricia K. Arndt

It's through consent agenda, but if you look at committee recommendation, it was sent back to staff.

Roy Sudler, Jr.

Okay. And I and maybe maybe it is a little misunderstanding to the constituent, but because it is confusing and very complex, why don't we just hear from our constituents that want to speak to the matter? It'll be

Tricia K. Arndt

It was discussed during the last meeting.

Audience Member

Do the right thing! Do the right thing!

Female Council Member

Point of order. Point of order.

Fred A. Neil

Mr. Chairman, Council President Neil. We are prepared to stay after we have taken care of the business that we are required to have on behalf of the staff who are here and others who are here for that purpose, and they can stay. I'm willing to stay and listen to every single person that's here when we conduct the business that has been advertised for the purpose and for the staff that's here for that purpose. Please. Please. I am prepared at this particular point if

Roy Sudler, Jr.

Exactly. We can extend our business for their business because their business is our business.

audience

That's right.

Roy Sudler, Jr.

So unless there's -- if if if we have five if we have need five votes if we if the vote if it's failed, then we can we have to wait. If it doesn't fail, then we can continue if we can continue as Councilman Lewis asked and requested and should be honored. I yield.

Roy Sudler, Jr.

Excuse me, just give me a moment please. I believe I have the floor and I have held that seat so I know what the Council President is and what we can and cannot do. So not trying to ruin anything, but we serve at the will of the people, and I've said this quite often,

Fred A. Neil

All right, you prepare to call the question.

audience

Roll call.

Fred A. Neil

We'll have a roll call vote on the question whether the this item will remove, which is incomplete, which will be removed from the consent agenda. I want uh a roll call vote as to who is in favor of this motion. Madam Clerk.

City Clerk

Ms. Hall.

Donyale M. Hall

Yes.

City Clerk

Mr. Boggerty.

Andre M. Boggerty

Yes.

City Clerk

Mr. Anderson.

David L. Anderson

Yes.

City Clerk

Dr. Pillsbury.

Julia M. Pillsbury

Yes.

City Clerk

Mrs. Arndt.

Tricia K. Arndt

No.

City Clerk

Mr. Rocha.

Gerald L. Rocha, Sr.

Yes.

City Clerk

Dr. Sudler.

Roy Sudler, Jr.

Yes.

City Clerk

Mr. Lewis.

Brian E. Lewis

Yes.

City Clerk

Council President Neil.

City Clerk

Council President Neil.

Fred A. Neil

I will not vote. Abstain.

Fred A. Neil

Okay. We have it on the floor. Gentlemen?

City Clerk

We still have to -- yes.

Fred A. Neil

Councilman Anderson?

David L. Anderson

I yield.

Fred A. Neil

Okay, yield to Councilwoman Hall.

Donyale M. Hall

I move that uh we also uh move item 11, Review of the People's Community Center Economic Development Fund Application,

City Clerk

uh from the consent agenda to also be discussed.

Roy Sudler, Jr.

Seconded by Sudler.

Fred A. Neil

So moved.

Fred A. Neil

Okay, so we have removed that item for discussion as well.

Fred A. Neil

Are we going to take uh item number 4?

City Clerk

14 and 11.

Fred A. Neil

14 and 11. Okay.

David L. Anderson

Uh we we...

Fred A. Neil

Yes. Councilman Anderson.

David L. Anderson

Thank you. Thank you, Mr. President. Uh the way we I'm going to make a motion to approve the consent agenda as amended, cuz what usually happens is individual members will ask for items to be removed, and then what happens is Council then the whole votes on the proposed amended agenda. And uh if there are no other items, at this time, I move that we approve the consent agenda as amended.

Fred A. Neil

Is there a second?

Roy Sudler, Jr.

Second.

Fred A. Neil

Seconded by Coun- uh Dr. Sudler.

City Clerk

Roll call.

Fred A. Neil

Roll call vote.

City Clerk

Mrs. Hall?

Donyale M. Hall

Yes.

City Clerk

Mr. Boggerty?

Andre M. Boggerty

Yes.

City Clerk

Mr. Anderson?

David L. Anderson

Yes.

City Clerk

Dr. Pillsbury?

Julia M. Pillsbury

Yes.

City Clerk

Mrs. Arndt?

Tricia K. Arndt

Yes.

City Clerk

Mr. Rocha?

Gerald L. Rocha, Sr.

Yes.

City Clerk

Dr. Sudler?

Roy Sudler, Jr.

Yes.

City Clerk

Mr. Lewis?

Brian E. Lewis

Yes.

City Clerk

Council President?

Fred A. Neil

Yes.

City Clerk

Unanimous.

Fred A. Neil

The vote is unanimous.

Fred A. Neil

And now we will have a public hearing on the—

City Clerk

No, first we have a proclamation.

Fred A. Neil

Proclamation is first.

City Clerk

GIS.

City Clerk

Yes, GIS Month.

Fred A. Neil

We invite the Mayor...

City Clerk

You see him? There he is.

Fred A. Neil

...and Mayor Christiansen and Mike Walker, GIS Manager, to the podium for the presentation, and request the City Clerk to read the proclamation into the record.

Unknown Speaker

Yes. Yes.

City Clerk

Ready?

City Clerk

Whereas, geographic information systems provide a vital framework for gathering, managing, analyzing, and visualizing data, thereby enabling governments, businesses, schools, and communities to make informed decisions. And whereas, GIS technology is used daily to improve public safety, transportation, environmental management, public health, utilities, economic development, and many other essential services. And whereas, Geography Awareness Week, observed November 16th through 22nd, 2025, and GIS Day, observed on Wednesday, November 19th, 2025, highlight the importance of geographic literacy, promote greater understanding of the interconnected world, and inspire future generations to explore careers in geography, geospatial sciences, and technology. And whereas, these observances provide an opportunity to recognize the dedicated professionals, educators, and students who use GIS and geographic knowledge to solve problems, expand learning, and foster innovation. And whereas, increasing public awareness of geography and GIS enhances civic engagement, strengthens communities, and helps citizens better understand their world. Now, therefore, I, Robin R. Christiansen, Mayor of the City of Dover, Delaware, do hereby proclaim November 19th, 2025,

City Clerk

as GIS Day, and November 16th through 22nd, 2025, as Geography Awareness Week in the City of Dover, and encourage all residents to recognize the value of geographic education and GIS technology in shaping a smarter, safer, and more sustainable future.

Robin R. Christiansen

Thank you, Madam Clerk. Thank you, Mr. President. On behalf of myself, the members of the City Council, and the citizens that we serve, I am honored to present you with this proclamation. You got a puppy cover so you get 3 minutes.

City Staff

All right. Mayor Christiansen, esteemed council members, thank you for the opportunity to accept this proclamation. Uh, it's an exciting day for me and my small but mighty team. Um, I wanted to just highlight a couple of accomplishments that we've that we've done this year. Um, we can We've improved our network stability, which is, uh, was long overdue. We've, uh, upgraded our enterprise system that is going to be helping, uh, stay current with the latest technology, helps us with the best capabilities, and it will help, um, efficiencies with our utility our utilities across the city, um, so that we can better manage those utilities and the data within it. So, um, it was a big year for us, and I'm excited to see what we do in this upcoming year with all those improvements. Um, on November 19th, we'll be celebrating GIS Day internally with staff. Um, we've we've developed a site where people can come and check out those highlights, um, and then they can play a little game, um, um, just to test your knowledge on a few area-

Speaker

is around town that have changed. Um and then, I know the state as a whole is going to be doing something at the Air Force base for, I think they're going to be doing field trips for fifth-grade students, so. Um I just really encourage everybody to, on this day and next week, um look at the importance of locations and what relationships those have in the world around you. Thank you.

Robin R. Christiansen

Thank you.

Fred A. Neil

Now we have the public hearing and final reading, proposed Ordinance 2025-15, rezoning requests by the Lands of Bayhealth Medical Center, consisting of

Fred A. Neil

1.0035 acres located at the southwest corner of South State Street and South South State Street and South Street. The property is currently zoned for R-G-O, General Resident and Office Zone, and subject to the W- S- WPOZ Source Water Protection Overlay Zone, and proposed zoning to I-O, Institutional and Office Zone, and subject to the W- S- WPOZ Source Water Protection Overlay Zone. The first reading of the proposed ordinance was accomplished during the council meeting of September 22nd, 2025. The ordinance is available at the entrance of the council chamber and on the city's website at www.cityofdover.com under Government. First, I'll entertain a motion to consider the final reading of the proposed ordinance by title only.

Fred A. Neil

which is simply to allow the waiving of the reading, a separate motion will be necessary for its adoption. Do I hear a motion?

Tricia K. Arndt

I'll move to enter it as title only.

Andre M. Boggerty

Boggerty seconds.

Fred A. Neil

It's been, uh, motion made and seconded. All in favor?

Council Members

Aye.

Fred A. Neil

Any opposed? Hearing no opposition, Madam Clerk.

City Clerk

Ordinance 2025-15, an ordinance amending the zoning ordinance and zoning map of the City of Dover changing the zoning designation of property located at 600 South State Street.

Fred A. Neil

I request, uh, Mrs. Dawn Melson-Williams, principal planner, to please brief us us on the rezoning.

Dawn Melson-Williams

Uh, thank you, Council President. I am Dawn Melson-Williams, the principal planner for the city's planning office. Um, and this evening, uh, our office, by way of the Planning Commission, brings this zoning request. It is zoning file number Z-25-01 and being considered under ordinance number 2025-15. Um, as noted, this is property that is owned by the Bayhealth, uh, Medical Center, Inc. It is located at 600 South State Street. Uh, it's about a 1-acre parcel that is shown in the brilliant yellow in the center of the image on the screen. Um, it is, uh, currently a, uh, two-story brick building, which the hospital utilizes as office space. Uh, the property currently is zoned RG-O, which is the General Residence and Office zone for the city and subject to the

Dawn Melson-Williams

source water protection overlay zone.

Dawn Melson-Williams

The request from the property owner is to rezone the property to IO, institutional and office zone, with it remaining subject to the source water protection overlay zone.

Dawn Melson-Williams

This application for rezoning was part of the Planning Commission meeting held on October 20th of 2025, where a public hearing was conducted at that meeting.

Dawn Melson-Williams

Six members of the public spoke at that meeting, and the meeting minutes from that Planning Commission meeting were included in tonight's City Council packet.

Dawn Melson-Williams

The Planning Commission did make a motion to recommend approval of rezoning of this property from RGO with the source water protection overlay zone to the IO, the institutional and office zone, and remaining subject to the source water protection overlay zone.

Dawn Melson-Williams

With all rezonings, we look to the city's comprehensive plan. The comprehensive plan has a land use category of institutional for this location.

Dawn Melson-Williams

The comprehensive plan further delineates that the goals of government and institutional land uses is to maintain and improve the city's position as a city, as a center of government, education, and medicine through the support of existing institutions and encouraging well-designed campuses that are integrated into the community and have room to expand.

Dawn Melson-Williams

The rest of this block, if you will, that is bounded by...

Dawn Melson-Williams

South Street, South State Street, Hope Street, and South Governors Avenue is already zoned IO, and that is where we find the main, um, Bayhealth, uh, Kent Campus hospital building that we know today. That's been at that location, um, for almost 100 years at this point. Um, the IO, Institutional and Office zone, is more fully described in the zoning ordinance in Article 10 that's uh, Article 3, Section 10, um, and the IO zone would allow for things such as, um, different types of office uses, banks, um, research, design, development laboratories, um, public and institutional uses, and it does, uh, specifically note hospitals, um, public utility rights-of-way structures, uh, childcare, uh, centers, uh, emergency shelters and transitional housing, and adult day care facilities. Additionally, there are several conditional uses, which would require a special review process with the Planning Commission in order to be established. And there are also, um, accessory uses and, um, other uses that are specifically prohibited. In looking at, um, the this request for rezoning, uh, the planning staff did provide a, uh, recommendation on the rezoning. Uh, the city planner report is, uh, made part of the council packet, and it, um, in that report, we note that the the location meets and fits the goals of the city's comprehensive plan, um, and that it would

Dawn Melson-Williams

encourage the long-term viability of an existing major institution here in the city. It is to be noted that a rezoning request does not grant approval of development or redevelopment of the property. A rezoning request also cannot lock it into one of those specific uses.

Dawn Melson-Williams

The Planning Commission, after hearing the staff report and comments from various agencies, conducted a public hearing, and as noted, six members of the public spoke. The Planning Commission ultimately, in considering the rezoning, looked at three factors: whether the uses permitted by the proposed change would be compatible with the existing uses and zones in the area, whether adequate public services and infrastructure exist or can be created, and whether the proposed change is in accordance with the city's current Comprehensive Plan. With those findings, the Planning Commission did recommend approval for rezoning. That is what we bring to Council tonight, and the Planning Commission is recommending approval of rezoning of this parcel of land to IO, Institutional and Office zone, with it remaining subject to the Source Water Protection Overlay Zone. Your meeting packet included a map location with more details and the meeting minutes from the Planning Commission, along with the comments from the Development Advisory Committee. So, this evening, the City Council

Dawn Melson-Williams

Council will conduct a public hearing. I believe the applicant um should be here. They may be in the lobby at the moment. Um, but uh, the hospital has uh representation that is intended to be here. Uh, imagine you'll hear from them as part of the public hearing process. Again, it's a request for rezoning um, and is part of uh proposed ordinance 2025-15.

Robin R. Christiansen

Questions for the staff? From the staff? Hearing no questions from the staff, I declare the public hearing open. For anyone here who would like to speak in favor of the rezoning, each person is requested to state their name and address for the record.

Gregory Moore

Good evening. I'm Gregory Moore, Becker Morgan Group, 309 South Governors Avenue, Dover. And I'm here representing Bayhealth on this matter. And uh obviously speaking in favor. Um. The first The first thing is Bayhealth has been before you to explain their master planning efforts for the upgrade to the Bayhealth campus there. Uh this property has been owned by Bayhealth for a number of years. It was bought just after the last master plan in about 2007 and 2008. Um. We are wishing simply to change the zone on this property to be consistent with all the other properties that are owned by Bayhealth. I do have a a graphic here, and in blue you can see all of the properties. This is State Street, South Street, Governors Avenue. The blue is properties that are owned by Bayhealth.

Bayhealth Representative

and the assumption Bayhealth owns them. So the property we're looking at is here, it is zoned RG-O.

City Staff

I put it up on the screen.

Bayhealth Representative

It is the only property in this entire area that's not zoned IO, which is institutional office. And we are simply asking for that property to be consistently zoned with all of the remainder of the zones that surround it. And that would even include Holy Cross. We colored that differently showing that it's owned by Holy Cross, but it's also IO. So the entire area that surrounds this property is institutional office, and we are just trying to make consistency with that.

Bayhealth Representative

The legal standard to prove for rezoning, there is the the a better version of that map on the on the drawing. You can see in the center of that is the proposed 10-story tower that we had approved in 2006. That is going to be phase one of our major master plan.

Bayhealth Representative

But we're not here tonight for the master plan, we're here tonight just for the rezoning. And I want to make a couple of points. Dawn's done a nice job of discussing the legal standards of rezoning. The first thing we need to prove is that it is in character with the surrounding neighborhood. And clearly the IO zone completely surrounding that RG-O makes it in character. Bayhealth properties are all there to support the Bayhealth Medical Center, and this property is no different, so we just want to incorporate that into the rest. It is compatible with the surrounding neighborhood. The surrounding neighborhood is already owned and operating as part of the medical center function, with exception of the, what I would call heavier commercial on the opposite side of Governors Avenue, which have coexisted with the hospital for decades. And

Greg

they're very aware of what we're doing. They knew we had approval to, to expand our campus in 2006, and we are just doing that, that second phase. Um lastly, Dawn discussed clearly that it is consistent with the City of Dover's comprehensive plan, and the comprehensive plan even mentions this being institutional office, so we have that consistency. And then lastly, we had unanimous approval at the planning commission to recommend approval. So with that, I'll be glad to answer any questions that you might have on our behalf.

Fred A. Neil

Any questions for Greg? Yes. Councilman, Dr. Sudler.

Roy Sudler, Jr.

Thank you, Council President Neil for recognizing me. Um were there any opposition in regards to this initiative here, or was there any opposition? And if so, what was the nature of opposition?

Greg

Um there were, there were a number of questions about what development plans we were doing. Um we were not presenting development plans. I, I outlined some of the initiatives the hospital is trying to do, and I'll do that now. Number one, we have to improve our emergency department timing. We have a lot of wait, and to do that, we have to add almost 200 beds in the hospital, and to add modern facilities, we need to be able to go up so that you can get up elevators quickly to the beds to see your loved ones or if you're the doctor getting around. Right now, our facility is very, very wide open. We have three or four different elevators. It's confusing. Elderly have a hard time walking down, so we're trying to go strictly vertical with our bed tower. There were questions about that, not specifically about the bed tower, but there was questions about traffic, there was questions about um drainage, there were questions

Bayhealth Representative

about what exactly we were doing, and uh we are formalizing those plans. We will be back to the planning commission with a detailed plan of all of the improvements, and that will be heard separately at a later date. We have not submitted it yet.

Andre M. Boggerty

I want to thank you for being open and transparent with the question. Uh I can I can understand the concern about traffic, but I hope that once that you do, you'll have a good plan for that. You'll have my support. Thank you. All right, yeah.

Bayhealth Representative

Just one thing I will add: um our addition of 200 beds is partly because of our growing community, but it is also because we have to eliminate dual-use dual-use rooms, where we have two beds in one room. So it actually sounds greater than it really is. What we're doing is taking a lot of dual-use rooms and putting them in individuals, which means we have to have more individual rooms. That's better healthcare, it's better for all of us, and that's a big initiative of the hospital. And lastly, it is the lack of beds that causes us problems in taking people from the ED and moving them into the beds. We get backed up, whether it's flu, whether it's COVID or whatever, and they stay in the in the emergency rooms, which keeps people in the waiting area to get to the rooms, and we have to do better at that. So it's a very important plan. Any other questions?

Public Commenter

but I do have a few questions. So um, I'm sorry, where do you go? Oh. Oh, I'm sorry, what's your name?

Fred A. Neil

Ah, please, you we we have to record it.

Public Commenter

So long story short, I just had a few questions. My question is, is this proposal, would it be funded by the city or is it private? That's why I asked. Is this city-funded or privately funded?

Fred A. Neil

Any other questions? Hearing no other questions, I thank you very much.

Bayhealth Representative

Thank you.

Fred A. Neil

Is there anyone here who would like to speak against the rezoning? Are you speaking against the rezoning? Please give us your name and and address for the record.

Bayhealth Representative

As far as

Fred A. Neil

Yeah, basically it's it's uh address Come down. It's not

Stephon Pierce

Uh my name is Stephon Pierce. I currently reside in Dover, Delaware. I don't know if it's against--

Bayhealth Representative

This is solely Bayhealth funded, everything we're doing. But to be clear, with this rezoning we're not doing anything other than change the zone to be consistent with the rest of our property. Right. Plans, improvements, building towers would all be funded by Bayhealth.

Public Commenter

And including all of that property too, right? So you would

Bayhealth Representative

Yes.

Public Commenter

end up having Meaning what homes or businesses that currently reside in that area, you guys would proceed with ownership of that?

Bayhealth Representative

There are There are no homes There are no homes there. This is actually already operated by Bayhealth, it's an office. We'll continue to do that through our Phase 1, and then eventually as we grow, we will use it for another purpose.

Public Commenter

That makes sense. That does make sense, thank you. I just had those questions, because if so, I had further questions, but I yield my time.

Fred A. Neil

And are there other people here that want to speak for it? Okay. Please come down and state your name and address.

Zach Prebula

Uh good evening, Zach Prebula, Director of Business Development with the Kent Economic Partnership located at 555 South Bay Road. Uh we're the economic development organization for Kent County, so we focus on business attraction, but also supporting local businesses looking to expand, and the

Tyler Ross

Right here's a great example of one of our major employers, one of our most crucial businesses looking to do just that. So with this rezoning, by approving it, you can help them move their future plans forward by only having to focus on one zoning code rather than multiple, and allow them to operate more efficiently and effectively for our community. Thank you.

Fred A. Neil

If there are other people who want to speak for it, please step forward.

Mr. Fast

I have two questions, and they're serious questions. One, if we're building up, do we have the apparatus for a fire company to remove people, God forbid there's a fire? Do we have snorkel baskets?

Donyale M. Hall

This is about zoning.

Mr. Fast

Do we have the apparatuses to make mass movement out of a facility if it should catch on fire? Moving up is great,

Donyale M. Hall

Why is he standing up?

Mr. Fast

if we have to evacuate, do we have the tools to do so? My second question is to the administration and head in general,

Mr. Fast

due to all the uptick of gun violence, has anyone considered about putting a trauma unit in? We are growing dramatically in this city. Um, I was a person flown from Smyrna to Christiana because there's no trauma center in Dover. We can save a lot of lives if we had trauma center in Dover, some form of a trauma center. So if you can answer those two questions, I'd be highly appreciative. Thank you.

Robin R. Christiansen

fire department where to go in location to make the rescue. But the hospital currently has a standpipe system and a fire pump and you take your equipment inside with your self-contained breathing apparatus and uh fight the fire from inside. So over 90 ft, the uh aerial trucks that we have uh are just that. They do the same thing in New York City. Anything above nine stories, you go in and get the fire.

Fred A. Neil

Mr. Mayor.

Donyale M. Hall

The questions are supposed to be about zoning.

Robin R. Christiansen

So I will answer Mr. Fast's first question about the fire department. Um, in the absence of the fire chief, I will speak from my personal experience. High-rise firefighting is not done from the outside, and the elevators that they're going to put in will be operated by the

Public Commenter

Thank you, Mr. Mayor. And a second question, and I don't know, is there any plans for a trauma center, or is that considered regional type of situation?

Bayhealth Representative

So, so as our communities grows, which it's doing, Bayhealth is continually adding new services. The heart program is one of those services that have been added in the last 10 years, cancer, etc. As our community continues to grow, Bayhealth will continue to add those new services as needed, and we need this campus expansion to be able to do that. And trauma would be one of those things on the radar screen for us to add in Dover as we do grow. I can't tell you that that's part of phase 1 or 2, but it will be part of our future plan to make sure we get that.

Fred A. Neil

as presented.

Roy Sudler, Jr.

I'll second it, Mr. President.

Julia M. Pillsbury

Dr. Pillsbury recommends second.

Fred A. Neil

A second for council.

Tricia K. Arndt

All righty.

Fred A. Neil

Is there any other questions from staff? From council? Hearing none, Madam Clerk, please call the roll.

Public Commenter

Thank you, sir.

Fred A. Neil

Any other questions for? Any other questions against? Anyone want to speak against? Okay. Um I now declare this public hearing closed. What is the pleasure of the council? Councilman Sudler.

City Clerk

Mrs.— Miss Hall?

Donyale M. Hall

Yes.

City Clerk

Mr. Boggerty?

Andre M. Boggerty

Yes.

City Clerk

Mr. Anderson?

David L. Anderson

Yes.

City Clerk

Dr. Pillsbury?

Julia M. Pillsbury

Yes.

City Clerk

Mrs. Arndt?

Tricia K. Arndt

Yes.

City Clerk

Mr. Rocha?

Gerald L. Rocha, Sr.

Yes.

City Clerk

Dr. Sudler?

Roy Sudler, Jr.

Yes.

City Clerk

Mr. Lewis?

Brian E. Lewis

Uh I'm going to have to abstain uh due to my affiliation with Bayhealth, and after consulting with our city solicitor, uh he advised me to recuse myself.

Roy Sudler, Jr.

Thank you, Council President Neil, for recognizing me. I move to accept staff recommendation—

City Clerk

Council President Neil?

Fred A. Neil

Yes.

City Clerk

Unanimous with eight zero and one abstention.

Fred A. Neil

Unanimous uh eight to zero with one abstention. It passed.

Fred A. Neil

Okay, we have Council uh number 11, review of the Community Center Economic Development Fund uh by Councilwoman Hall.

Public Commenter

for economic development funds. I have provided written answers to you. I will only summarize now what our response is. The first set of questions from the staff asked us to tell you who we are. I believe that probably you all already know. We Not only did I give a presentation to you, a good half-hour-long presentation maybe a year ago, but also you probably know that we have received three rounds of ARPA funding from the city and have managed it well. We have received this year $350,000 from the opioid settlement fund, $100,000 from DuPont money from the Welfare Foundation, all for capital projects. We received funding 2 years ago from the governor's office to install our new sprinkler system. So, I think we're already pretty well-known, and we're certainly well-established in terms of the success of our programs. One of the questions that staff asked was, "Well, how do we know that you can run the programs you promise to run?" And again, I finally would ask you to consider the fact that we have already a pretty well-established reputation in Kent County for running these programs. One doesn't get DuPont money unless one can demonstrate previous success in running these programs. The opioid settlement application process was extremely detailed and even a bit burdensome.

Donyale M. Hall

Thank you for recognizing me, Council President. At this time, I'd like to have Dr. Hodge come forward and give council um some of the answers to um the city manager's questions regarding this application. Thank you, Dr. Hodge, for being here.

Derek Hodge

Derek Hodge, Pine Street, Dover. I received a list of questions or requests for supplemental information after staff read our application for...

Presenter

they wanted to be sure that we were quite capable not only of managing the money, but of running successful programs, and obviously we did that quite successfully because they awarded us $350,000.

Presenter

The state comptroller sent two persons to conduct a site visit about two months ago to make sure that we were managing our GIA funding.

Presenter

We've received GIA funding for the last four years, and those two people from the comptroller's office communicated to me that they were quite impressed and saw that indeed the programs promised in the GIA application have been done quite well, and so they left satisfied.

Presenter

I think we can trust then the consensus of private and public funders in Dover, in Delaware, that indeed we are already well known, we've established a solid reputation.

Presenter

And one thing I'd like to add to that is that our work is done through partnerships. And if we, I think you can trust, if you trust the people who have entered into partnership with us, if you can trust the two state representatives who are on our board of directors or the two members of this body who also sit on our board of directors, they probably wouldn't be involved in an organization that was not fit and prepared to handle city funding.

Public Commenter

in the workforce development program, as described already in the application we submitted. Uh, we are partnering with Polytech School District, with NeighborGood Partners for the financial literacy component. We are being advised by Harold Stafford, a former Secretary of Labor of Delaware. So, um, I was given all this, I was pleased to be able to answer the questions in staff's letter that that suggested to me that they're we've pretty well established our fitness for receiving this money. Now I'd just like to say a little bit about the program.

Presenter

We are partnered with DANA, the Delaware Alliance for Nonprofit Advancement. Dr. Bravo is our board development consultant.

Public Commenter

Our clients in the People's Community Center roughly we can divide into three parts: about a third of our clients, and by clients I mean people who are hungry and come for dinner, in the winter we have a winter shelter. Uh, we also have a children's program, an after-school program, because so many of the children of our neighborhood has have nowhere to go. Uh, I will introduce Beverly Henderson behind me, who is the coordinator of the after-school program. Uh, about a third of our clients, aside from the children, who come to come to the People's Community Center, are people who are deeply in their addiction and can barely function, much less are they going into the workforce. About a third of our people are folks who already work, they just can't afford rent. Or their food stamps run out, so they come for dinner. We have elderly people on Social Security who come for dinner.

Presenter

Those folks who are already working, but come to us because they can't afford rent, are folks that we can't help. That's going to require a significant economic shift and policy change to provide affordable housing. There's nothing we can do about that. So the target for the workforce- for the economic development funds that we're seeking is to create this new workforce- center for workforce development. And the target population are those 1/3 of the- the final third of our clients, who are people who are ready to re-enter the formal workforce. They are people, many of them who are early in recovery, they're getting out of their addiction, they weren't so far gone. They are folks who have perhaps had family ruptures that disrupted their life, and meant that the normal path was not open to them. And so they are- find themselves in their 30s, and- and not with a- a not with a a stable work life. So these are the folks that we that this program wants to help. Those folks who are not deeply in their addiction, they're not already working or retired, but can't afford rent. These are the people who are ready to re-enter the workforce, and it would be- and and we do this not merely for them. You see, in the- in the past, we have run the shelter and the the hungry neighborhood program because we believed that it was our duty to help people stay alive until they could fix whatever it was was that was causing them to stumble. This year, we've we have a little bit different I can I can tell already I'm

Presenter

boring you all. I'd better I'd better make my talk a little more interesting. Uh uh we've decided that our our work this year is going to be not just keeping them alive, but helping them get back on their feet. And so we've instituted some changes to the shelter program so that people have to set goals. And there was a case We're paying a case manager to work with them, and week by week to see are they are they are they complying with the steps required in order to meet the goal? And if they don't meet the goals, then they can't stay with us anymore. Uh if they don't if they don't have the ambition to change their situation, uh they're not going to stay with us.

Presenter

As part of that development of our mission, uh this workforce development program will help people get back on their feet. People who there are mighty tough barriers. Some Some, those of us who are middle-class folks and who are stably in the workforce don't realize how hard it is to get a birth certificate if you've been like on the street, or if there's a family rupture, so you can't or a mother's died and you can't get to the house to get your birth certificate. And without Without a birth certificate, one can't get a Social Security card. Without a Social Security card, one can't get a job. Without a driver's license, one can't get an apartment. So these are barriers that are would be easy for us to go, but for for the folks we're working with, these are big problems. Um so the program we developed are is intended to help people get over those barriers so that if they want to and are ready to get back in the workforce, they can. Uh uh documents, GED, partnering with the Polytech uh uh school district,

Public Commenter

financial literacy, we're partnering with Neighborhood Partners. Computer literacy, basic life skills, expungement, we're partnering with, again, the Department of Labor APEX program. Specific job training and job placement, partnering with the Department of Labor. So, all of the work that we do is through these partnerships with folks who are, I'm sure you'll agree, well-qualified to do this work. So, though the staff seemed to have a question as to whether we were qualified to do this, I think that having Harold Stafford in our - on our side advising us, and with our track record of producing stable, solid programs that help people get back on their feet, and with our track record of managing grant money very well, I think we can put those questions to rest. And now, I wonder if you all have any questions about our application or our plans to open the - the Workforce Development Center?

Fred A. Neil

Because this is this is something that's essential for the people who who can't control themselves on this. I mean, it's things that really, really difficult, and to be able to get them off and keep them off is essential for everything that we're doing.

Fred A. Neil

I have one question for you based on the Quality of Life project from the City Police Department, which we actually posted on the city website if anyone wants to see the six-page document that basically summarizes what they found out. One of the things they found out is that we do not have enough detox centers. And I know that Councilman Sudler's committee is working on that. So the question is, you've gotten $350,000 on that. Do you have a detox center, or are you willing to work with Councilman Sudler's group?

Public Commenter

Uh-huh.

Public Commenter

Yes, thank you. Um, one of the things, by the way you're speaking to an addict with 38 years of recovery. So I've been clean and sober—no, don't, I say that not for applause, but to say I know what it's like.

Public Commenter

I know what it's like to be passed out in the alley. I know what it's like to be in danger of my life, and I know what it's like to crave something so desperately that everything else is nothing else, I can't think of anything else. Um,

Public Commenter

one of the things we do in the shelter is we get people into treatment when we identify them after talking to them. Um, I think we're up to 75 people now that we've gotten into treatment. However, and and so we're all we're all for it, and by the way, we are also in support of a enforcement of the laws that are already on the books, but the laws that the police don't always seem keen on enforcing. That would help some of those folks uh who are on the street and who cannot care for themselves.

Fred A. Neil

It may not be the police who do not enforce the law.

Fred A. Neil

help, too. But in any case, uh, as long as Councilman Sudler is there, and working on that, because that is one of the most essential points of helping people to get off the gas.

Public Commenter

I know. There's a—

Fred A. Neil

There's a serious problem with the Department of Justice, and I've said it right here.

Public Commenter

With the Attorney General. Understood, sir.

Fred A. Neil

Right here. Absolutely, it's a problem here because there's no consequence, and until there's a consequence, they need help, and that will help them if they need it.

Public Commenter

Yes, understood. And we are engaged in that work. We save, uh, three lives a week because we are staffed 24/7 with people with Narcan. And there's nowhere for people downtown to go if their buddy starts to overdose. So we are in the middle of it. We know. But what I'm here today to talk about is the workforce development, not for those third who are in their addiction, but for those third of our clients who are ready to move into the regular workforce. That's That's the population we're talking about now. The folks who are early in addiction, or early in recovery, for instance.

Fred A. Neil

Any-- Yes, Councilman Sudler.

Roy Sudler, Jr.

Thank you, Council President Neil. I wanted to speak to the point of the application process and the fact that it's somewhat burdensome. Um, would you be willing to be-- would you be willing to come to our meeting, um, on, um, Monday, next Monday the 17th, the Mayor's Blue Ribbon Opioid Task Force meeting committee, and express to us, um, some of the challenges and the best way to hurdle through those challenges because we're having the grant process, as well as, um, the application process. And we have Mr. Brad Adams there as well. So we have a workforce development chair, uh Michelle Pauls, our chair of workforce development, and, um, we have some other ad hoc committees. So we would love to hear from you, um, and and share that knowledge so that we can help

Roy Sudler, Jr.

you and your workforce development initiative across Dover, Kent County, and throughout the State of Delaware. So—

Pastor

Thank you. Thank you for the invitation.

Roy Sudler, Jr.

Absolutely. Thank you, Council President. That's all I have.

Pastor

I can I can say that as of eight days ago, I began a a sabbatical. I came back for this, so I will actually be camping in the Smoky Mountains. I'm leaving tomorrow morning, so I can't. I could be there by Zoom, but

Roy Sudler, Jr.

Glad to see you in person.

Pastor

Yes, we are happy. When I said burdensome, it wasn't the the Economic Development Fund's application from the city was not burdensome. The opioid commission was burdensome, and and for good reason: they wanted to be darn sure that money didn't go to folks who weren't able to manage it appropriately and account for it and used standard accounting practices. So we passed those hoops. So, my point was wasn't to complain about the application. It was to say this was a 30-page, single-spaced application for the opioid settlement, we passed. So, it was just to give you some confidence that we've passed scrutiny. And and by the DuPonts, DuPont Foundations, yes, there's a high level of scrutiny there, and we've passed that, too.

Presenter

Yes, and yes. Uh the Department of Labor uh I think does has a great set of programs. And which is precisely why we want to partner with them, which is why we went to Harold Stafford to help us to help advise us. My microphone is coming in and out. I hope it's okay for

Roy Sudler, Jr.

Well, thank you for the clarity. And if you do have someone else from your organization that could come and attend and speak to that, that would be greatly appreciated. Thank you, Council President.

Fred A. Neil

Councilman Lewis.

Brian E. Lewis

Good evening, Pastor. With regard to your workforce development program, to your knowledge, do you know if the State currently offers any programs with respect to that? Because I'm trying to ascertain if this would be something that would be duplicated.

Unknown Speaker

You're good here. The recording's okay.

Presenter

Um so yes, it is duplicative to the extent that they do great things. However, um our folks, that third that I'm talking about, uh one of the things that is uh one of the psychological factors with people who have been beaten down a lot is um that they feel safe in their neighborhood. So, what we're asking is for somebody early in recovery, perhaps, I'm just going to make up a straw person. Somebody early in recovery lives on Governors and Reed and wants to get back in the workforce, isn't quite sure what to do, and we're going to say, okay, I want you to walk 2.3 miles to the Blue Hen Center where you can meet with somebody at the Department of Labor. You see, that's an extra barrier. One of the great assets that we offer the city is, people trust us. And people who are institution-shy trust us, and they will walk into our building, but they're not going to walk two miles and walk into the Blue Hen Center, which can be a bit intimidating. So, we want to bring those services, everything that pos-

Presenter

Polytech offers for the GED, the Neighborhood Partners, the APEX, the uh a job uh uh training and placement services, we want to bring them into our building where they will come. Fortunately, the city granted us $40,000 through the Community Development Block Block Grant to help us uh uh renovate the space. We're renovating the bowling alley in People's Church. Yes, people are sad to lose their bowling alley, but there is a higher use. And so with some of the opioid money, uh we will convert the, Becker Morgan drew the plans to convert the bowling alley into a uh uh two private con- office spaces for counseling, one big room for trainings and uh group therapy, a bank of computers so that people can um get on to the Department of Labor website. So, everything is done through partnership. Uh we have no interest in duplicating, we do have an interest in helping our clients access those services that are offered elsewhere in the city.

Council Member

Understood. No further questions at this time.

Fred A. Neil

May, do they have uh, if anybody else have any additional questions? There's no action required. Basically the recommendation was to bring it back to council for approval uh at a later time. We thank you very much for coming, and we hope that you are camping and not smoking, and not the other way around.

Presenter

I don't smoke at all, but I do camp and hike. That's my thing.

Fred A. Neil

Thank you. All right. Now we come to uh proposed ordinance uh 2025-21, uh Councilman Lewis.

Brian E. Lewis

Yes. Uh, regrettably, I was unable to attend the Committee of the Whole meeting where this matter was discussed due to an illness. So, I have some questions that I would like to ask, these are technical questions, to our police chief, which I would have asked if I was in attendance at that meeting. So if you don't mind, Chief, could you uh, go to the podium?

Female Speaker

You have to give him permission.

Fred A. Neil

Yes. Please step up.

Brian E. Lewis

All right, my first question, Chief, is, um, and I reviewed the ordinance, uh, Delaware law already governs pedestrian conduct under Title 21 4142, pedestrian right-of-way in crosswalks, and 4143, crossing at other crosswalks. Uh, why can't the Dover Police Department continue enforcing these existing state statutes instead of creating a new city ordinance that risks overlapping or conflicting enforcement?

Thomas Johnson

The I guess the most direct way to answer your question is the sections that you just, um, referenced basically deal with the ongoing process of crossing the street, and the idea that the median is typically a safe haven for perhaps someone who's not quite as mobile as the next person and can't make it across in a single light cycle, they can kind of take a break, let traffic go, and then they can continue on. The difference switches into the right to be on the traffic island, the idea of, um, spending numerous light cycles in that—

Thomas Johnson

that space. Um, the that's probably one of the reasons why the state's statute on loitering suffered the fate that it did in the federal courts, um, because of the fact that you have a right to be in certain places, uh, to exercise your First Amendment right, and that is one of the issues that are in play whenever it is that you're doing the balance test for, uh, an ordinance such as this. I was not, um, intimately involved in the drafting of the language of this particular ordinance, other than recommending one that had been successfully adopted in another, uh, community. Uh, but that's probably the biggest difference is the act of crossing the street versus the act of standing in a specific place. Um, I don't know if you recall the history of that statute, it allowed, um, on certain days of the year, it allowed fundraising, um, by organizations. So that kind of established the right to be in, uh, certain places, and that led to some of the the legal issues that ended up getting played out, uh, in federal court, as I was briefed on the why as to why, um, we're in a little bit of a limbo. I believe the state legislature is going to be considering a replacement, um, for that statute in the upcoming session. I have no idea yet what that's going to look like, um, so I I regret that I can't offer you any, um, advance information as to what might inform what council eventually adopts with this ordinance, um, but that's the probably the best way I could give you that answer.

1 (Public Comment)

situation uh with respect to to my recollection, I used to see firefighters out there with their hats collecting money for for fund drives and stuff like that.

1 (City Staff)

Yeah, fill the boot campaign.

1 (Public Comment)

Yeah, pretty much. So I was like, you know, they're it's permissible for them, so what's what's the difference? Uh my my second question is, uh what documented data or um conclusion reports does the police department have showing that the existing state pedestrian law in Title 21 are insufficient to to address the pedestrian safety concerns, uh and has there been a measurable pattern of incidents that state law could not cover?

Brian E. Lewis

No, understood, and and and you just brought up a uh very uh imperative uh I I guess, uh,

1 (City Staff)

That's a little bit of a nuanced response from the standpoint of if you're just looking violation versus uh enforcement, uh you'd have to spend all day monitoring every intersection for someone that was in violation if your mere goal is to just do an enforcement action for um a witness violation. The I believe the the the spirit of the intent of the ordinance you have before you is injury prevention. Um we have two uh pedestrian fatalities from at-risk population so far in 2025, and we have another um I think we when I asked him to do the search, uh we had 35 injured parties since January 1 of 2024 within the city limits of Dover that are related to auto versus pedestrian. Uh the weakness of the dataset is it's very difficult to narrow down um exactly where all of those events

Thomas Johnson

places, because that's not exactly how it's tracked, um, in the median, at curb edge, like it's hard to say exactly where a pedestrian was when they were struck by a motor vehicle. Um, but the total number uh is concerning uh through our uh cooperation, collaboration with the uh Office of Highway Safety and them tracking uh data statewide. And I guess um, the idea of prevention being the best medicine, my uh point of view on this issue has been there's two main places where pedestrians don't stand a chance. One is limited-access highways with 55 mph speed or greater. Um, there's just um, those aren't intersection accidents, but those accidents when something transpires, the human being can't move fast enough to get out of the way of the thing that's coming towards them. Uh the second location is intersections of significant size. I'm not necessarily talking about two neighborhood streets that are 10 or 15 mph speed limits approaching one another. Unless there's something really bizarre going on, you don't see significant damage and injury accidents at those intersections. But any intersection of significant size, the crash dynamics lead to the kinds of outcomes that the pedestrian is not agile enough to maintain their own safety. Um, prior to my appointment to Dover PD, I supervised that accident reconstruction unit, so it was kind of my responsibility to understand causative factors and the things that might lead to prevention and education efforts. And the one uh truth is, is when two vehicles at significant speed hit each other at somewhere in the neighborhood of a 90° angle, depending on where the hits occur and the speeds, those cars use that centrifugal force

Police Officer

course will send debris and vehicles in unpredictable directions. If you're within X number of feet of an intersection, and the safe distance is debatable, but in general proximity of an intersection, you don't stand a chance.

Police Officer

So, my own my complete perspective on this ordinance you had before you, and I and I hope I'm answering your question uh um in the way that you were looking for, there's hard data, and then there's um anecdotal data

Police Officer

that through experience points to the places that were trying to keep pedestrians that are spending significant time in at-risk locations.

Police Officer

You're crossing the street, you're crossing the street. All of us take those chances. That's why jaywalking is technically illegal, because it's not safe to cross the street mid-block; it's safer to cross at a corner. But cross and and move on. Get through that light cycle and and get someplace safe.

Police Officer

Um so that's the interest that I have here is preventing that kind of collateral damage, cuz in my experience, vehicles are undefeated against human beings in significant impacts.

Thomas Johnson

station does. Anytime there's a reportable accident, and if you ever hear a police officer talking about a reportable accident versus a non-reportable accident, the over and under on that definition is, is the accident of significance that it needs to be reported to the state for their research purposes? They have very sophisticated software that does accident analytics. A fender bender, a no-injury accident, don't even need a tow truck, that's a local accident report, and the state doesn't always process that data when they're doing their analysis. So all manner of traffic safety improvements, whether that's engineering, whether that's light timing, whether that's signage, pick any traffic control mechanism that you can think of, your state—and this is any State Department of Transportation—is doing ongoing analytics of the data, and then they come, and if they think something ain't right, they'll come out and actually do a study and a survey, and watch that condition for a while to see if the data indicators matches what the investigator sees on the ground. And then the state will make regular decisions about traffic regulation, and they might not even let us know about it, because they're just handling their business because it's just so automatic.

Brian E. Lewis

My next question is uh before drafting this ordinance, did the Dover Police Department coordinate with the Delaware Department of Transportation, DelDOT, or the Office of Highway Safety uh to improve signage, uh signal timing, or crosswalk safety under state authority? If not, uh why were they not pursuing those state-level remedies first?

Police Officer

The There was no specific activity that you just described, because that is an ongoing assessment that the Department of Transportation

Fred A. Neil

Why didn't you consult with them?

Thomas Johnson

No, because we we know that they're on on that issue all the time. We consulted injury data as we had available to us inside the corporate limits, both injuries and fatalities within a specific window of time, and I guess for for the record, we stuck to pedestrians. We've had several incidents in Dover in the last couple years that involved people that were on bicycles, which mostly the metrics of...

Thomas Johnson

the same whether you're hit on your feet or whether you're hit on a bicycle, but we excluded the bicycle count in the data that I referenced.

Brian E. Lewis

Understood. All right.

Brian E. Lewis

And and this is pretty much my concern with the whole ordinance is since Delaware already enforces pedestrian safety through Title 21, chapter 41, what specific oversight will ensure that the new city ordinance does not result in double penal- penalties or conflicting citations for the same conduct under both city and state law? You know, are we duplicating something here is my question.

Thomas Johnson

I think what you're referring to, and it's a practice that we we tend to avoid at every possible turns, is stacking of charges. There's no there's no point. When you're looking at something that's inherently a safety issue, you use the law or the statutes, whether that's a local ordinance or whether that's a state statute. You use that up to the point that's necessary to get compliance. I would be very comfortable saying to you that four out of five times for a a an offense at this level, a warning is all that's necessary. We just need the statute to be in place to back up the authority to issue the warning and ask the people the person to move off of off of that spot. And as with any discussion about state statute versus a local ordinance, state statute has a much more permanent life as far as it being connected to your record in in the state systems, where a local ordinance violation is much less of an overlay on on the history of your of your conduct. It's not as it's not as easy to find in a search

Thomas Johnson

So, and usually the um the financial consequences are are less um in the aggregate. Um so I'm pretty typically before you whenever we're talking about uh an ordinance that also has a similar companion state level statute, I look at it through the lens of just another tool in the tool box, not for um an additional application, but as an alternative. That way the officer can do either A or B depending on the situation. And then it just comes down to um discretion as to which uh which tool to use.

Brian E. Lewis

I mean as far as I'm concerned, uh an ordinance is equivalent to a uh a parking ticket. Uh, maybe a parking ticket that carries a little more weight actually uh these days. But uh I mean, they're not going to issue a capias if you don't pay uh an ordinance. Uh it's not going to result into uh a criminal um uh fine or it's not going to It's not something that's going to result into um you you having to go before a JP judge where a capias is issued opposed to an actual um, you know, ticket or summons under Title 21, am I correct?

Brian E. Lewis

a summons and uh they don't pay?

Thomas Johnson

That's a little bit more of um an issue for the courts. Um we are not very aggressive, um if you will. Um we've been uh ever since COVID, our posture on um say using a collection agency or or something to that effect has been much more diminished because of economic conditions, the the we hear the voice of council um regularly on other issues of similar concern. Um if you're talking about it being in front of a judge, uh I can't remember the last time I saw somebody sent to incarceration because of failure to pay a low-level fine. Um a new court date might get set up, they might attempt a payment plan. Um there's other alternative strategies to address uh an unpaid fine. Um but if if the root of your question is, is anybody going to jail over that? Uh disproportionately unlikely.

Thomas Johnson

There's There's a lot to that discussion, but in a general sense, sir, you you are correct. You're uh The system is probably going to be less um assertive in recovering an individual to put stand them up in front of a judge over a local ordinance as opposed to um a failure to appear warrant that might be in a larger database um at the Delaware State.

Brian E. Lewis

And and what's the protocol right now if um one were to be, let's say, uh this ordinance passes and they're issued

Brian E. Lewis

I I figured that. And and my next question is, and Mr. Hugg could maybe chime in on this, um right now we have code enforcement that issues uh summonses, and uh my understanding um is if they don't pay, it goes to a collection agency. Am I correct?

Dave Hugg

That That is correct.

Dave Hugg

On a code violation.

Brian E. Lewis

Code violation. Uh so so this would kind of be synonymous to a code violation, if I understand.

Brian E. Lewis

Uh and don't we have to pay for that collection agency to utilize their services?

Dave Hugg

Uh typically what they do is deduct a portion of of the amount received. Um there is some it's a I don't know, when they bail out uh

Fred A. Neil

I thought looking at the generally in a collection agency they they take 10 or 20% or whatever of the collected amount. But in this particular case, as written, the code enforcement officers would not have the authority in it. This is a police matter.

Roy Sudler, Jr.

Now, I understand that, but what I'm trying to ascertain is it would be similarly to the same retrospect where they'll be sent to a collection agency, a capias would be issued, am I correct, for somebody--

Fred A. Neil

We have the potential. We do that.

Thomas Johnson

It would The only way it would it would have to be converted into a something that would be on a court docket. A local ordinance violation released in the police department is literally handled within the agency. It really doesn't become a warrant, if you will, or a capias. But if the individual says, "Hey, I want my day in court," and we have to take that local ordinance violation and roll it over and create a state violation, because that's the only way Court 7 can get it on the docket, well, then once you elevate it to that level and then if you fail to appear or if you don't if you perhaps you lose and you don't pay your fine, then it actually could turn into a warrant because of the fact that the individual elevated it to the level of the JP Court and then if some some part of that process led them into warrant status, well, then, yes, that's possible. But if it doesn't get beyond our level, that's incredibly rare.

Brian E. Lewis

have the police officer, uh, subpoenaed to appear as a witness, uh, etc., which would take resources off the street?

Thomas Johnson

Yeah, it would take the normal course, um, that we would if if we started out with a state-level section and using the state system for the enforcement action.

Brian E. Lewis

I have one more question, uh, Chief. Uh, Mr. President, may I just have a couple? Um, how will officers be trained if this ordinance passes, uh, to enforce this ordinance in a way that respects the 1st Amendment and 14th Amendment rights of individuals, especially when Delaware law already provides clear guidance on pedestrian movement without restricting, uh, expressive activity such as charitable solicitation or holding signs on public property? The City Solicitor if he wants to weigh in on this, he can also.

Roy Sudler, Jr.

And that's something at that juncture where if it was elevated and somebody wishes to contest the summons that was issued on the ordinance, you would--

Thomas Johnson

Well, I'll begin, uh, and maybe I'll tee it up for the the Solicitor to to add on. This comes down to typical discretion that we use for compliance of the law in any situation at any level. The minimum level is the most preferred level. It's whatever we're trying to do to gain compliance. Um, through my lens, despite any other um thoughts related to this ordinance, through my lens, I'm only focused on the pedestrian safety component of this. If during that timeframe, um, and judging from my some recent uh conversation I had with Councilman Sudler, if there's an opportunity to extend outreach services, we're doing that already. Um, our Behavioral Health Unit for probably three and a half years now, uh, have been approaching people that are on intersections in the flow of traffic trying to offer them services.

Thomas Johnson

is, uh, and a way out. So that would be pretty typical, uh, of our behavior that we've established already. But if if we don't have the availability of the unit on that particular day, uh, or the situation through the totality of the circumstances indicates otherwise, we're just simply going to ask people to move along, especially if we have, if we've had contact with them before and we've already had the discussion: hey, you're familiar, you- you can't be in this particular spot because of of the local ordinance. Um, we're going to use the least restrictive and the least, uh, punitive method to try and gain compliance. If someone becomes obstinate, um, they want to test the resolve of the officer, or they're just having a bad day, whatever it ends up winding up where we actually have to issue, uh, a violation, sooner or later someone is going to court test that. And then eventually, this new ordinance will find its way to some kind of a judicial ruling, uh, and it might end up, um, going through a constitutional test. If, during that constitutional test, the the word comes back like: hey, the ordinance was close, but we're not satisfied, or the ordinance language is satisfactory as it relates to your First Amendment and 14th Amendment issues, then we just continue rolling along, trying to keep the the major intersections clear of people that don't have a chance when an intersection accident occurs. Um, if we aren't successful through the appellate process, uh, as a community with the ordinance that we may have chosen to adopt, then we just have to go back and and and retool. But the First and 14th Amendment, whether on the outset or during a court test, it will be respected. Um,

City Attorney

Sir, if I could add to that, the- the Chief is 100% correct in- in terms of the state...

Legal Counsel

state of the law on the balance between protecting on one hand, the citizens' First and 14th Amendment rights to freedom of expression, freedom of assembly, freedom of speech on the one hand, but also allowing the government to protect its legitimate interest in pedestrian safety. It's been an evolving issue with the courts over the years, and an evolving issue in Delaware. Delaware has a state statute that addresses loitering. The ACLU challenged that in federal court. It was resolved by an agreement by the Attorney General's office not to enforce that or state statute. It's still on the books, but the state has agreed not to enforce the loitering ordinance. But what has to happen is the government has to balance the individual's First and 14th Amendment rights to freedom of expression, assembly, and speech against the government's interest in protecting pedestrians. The language the courts use when they analyze a statute like this is the the ordinance has to be, and I quote, 'narrowly tailored to serve substantial and content-neutral government interests.' So, when and if this ordinance is passed, and when and if this ordinance is challenged, the court's determination will be based on that standard: Has the Has the government, has the city struck an appropriate balance, and narrowly tailored the language of this ordinance to balance the interest of pedestrian safety against the interest of citizen right to expression?

Brian E. Lewis

I have no further questions. Thank you both for answering my questions.

Fred A. Neil

We've had a the financial director for the city, Patricia Marney—

Fred A. Neil

who is on a WebEx with us and has a comment concerning collections.

City Clerk

Is she in? Yes, there we go.

Fred A. Neil

Can you hear?

Patricia Marney

Can you hear, Council President?

Fred A. Neil

Yeah, you're on.

Patricia Marney

Thank you. Thank you, Council President, for recognizing me. I apologize, I still am sick um to everyone in the room. Hopefully you can hear me and understand me. This is Patricia Marney, Controller/Treasurer. In regards to the question regarding collections, there is an 18- as Mr. Hugg indicated, there's an 18 to 20% uh collectible fee that is added to through code enforcement and any other collections through utility, things of that nature, that gets referred to our third-party collector under our current contract. Now, uh as the Chief indicated, we do have a separate uh agreement and obligation for fines that deal through the police department uh that would need to be considered.

Roy Sudler, Jr.

feel that they need to be ushered off the median and onto uh an area that provides resources or have like a a an array of resources whether it's mental health, substance abuse, um co-occurring issues, whatever circumstance they're dealing with, I would like to see us provide resources for them and not advocate for arresting them. You cannot arrest your way out of the situation. We have to have resources. I would like, if if the council president is okay with that, uh I would like to call our opioid-induced disorder um opioid adviser Ms. Toni Jordan who is an expert and is dealing with uh these type of circumstances right now in North Dover uh Group Counseling. Uh if it's okay, can I call her up to speak on this matter?

Fred A. Neil

Thank you. Councilman Sudler.

Roy Sudler, Jr.

Thank you, Mr. President, for recognizing me. Uh so first let me say I do agree with the sentiment and the basis of the foundation of making sure people are safe within the median, um and not have individuals in the median, and how that impact impacts the obstruction of view of the driver and also delay of traffic issues. So I am in agreement with individuals do not need to be on the median um, period, for whatever reason. Um however, my approach is a little bit different. I believe-

Fred A. Neil

You certainly can, Dr. Sudler.

Roy Sudler, Jr.

And then I'll just have uh once she's finished, you can come forward to state your name, your organization, and just your and just give us your view on the topic from your expertise. Thank you.

City Clerk

Dr. Sudler. Dr. Sudler, name, name and organization.

Toni Jordan

Hi, I'm Toni Jordan, um 99 Pine Valley Road, Dover, Delaware. So, thank you for allowing me to speak. As uh Councilman Sudler said, I am on the opioid task force committee, um excited about the prospect of helping. And one of the things, um we all want everyone to be safe as the citizens of our of our city. We don't want anyone to be hit by a vehicle or anything like that, obviously, but we need to be able to direct people to the resources they need.

Speaker 1

We need to be able to ask the question, what is it that we can do to help you today, and determine who is going to be able to get that help.

Speaker 1

Um, the police chief mentioned the Behavioral Health Unit at the police department, so I'd be really happy to find out how that process works and how we can support the police department because I know the resources are limited.

Speaker 1

And as a task force committee member, we know that providing the resources to people is going to be a matter of identifying exactly what they need, because at the end of the day, they're in the median because they need the money for anything: food, shelter, whatever the case may be.

Speaker 1

We can't assume that everyone is addicted to drugs or has a mental health issue or, you know, whatever the case may be. Everyone has a different situation.

Speaker 1

So, the simplest question is to approach people with respect and simply say: How can we help you?

Speaker 1

Now, we know that some people will say: "Leave me alone," right? And if that's the case, we'll get them to a safer area off the median where they can go.

Speaker 1

But I know that the police department can't do it by themselves, and neither can we at North Node Counseling. So it's really exciting that we can partner with people with boots on the ground, grassroots organizations, other agencies,

Speaker 1

and use this as an opportunity to figure out how can we approach people using methods that are evidence-based, such as,

Speaker 1

for example, I have here, um, one of the things that we do is a, it's called the SBIRT method: screening, brief intervention, response method.

Speaker 1

Um, and there's plenty of organizations that do this method, but the problem is is that there is no follow-through and follow-up support. And so,

Speaker 1

we have an

Public Commenter

opportunity to not penalize people for being in panhandling, being in the medians, but also directing them, as Councilman Sudler, to resources and support that can help based on what it is that they need individually. Um, that's pretty much it.

Fred A. Neil

Thank you. One of the things that's extremely disturbing is in the Quality of Life initiative by the police department indicated the number of people who have actually refused help. And that is one of the biggest problems we have. If you don't think we want to offer help, it's not true. We've offered help, and people have simply said, "I don't want it." And there's a problem because there's nothing we can do to make them do that. Except uh Councilman Anderson.

Andre M. Boggerty

Council President, just before, if you don't mind I would just like to I just wanted to say one quick comment before that, if that's all right with you.

Fred A. Neil

Yes, please, go ahead.

Andre M. Boggerty

I just want to address the fact that I know there's individuals that want to help individuals that's on the median. What I would offer as an idea is a QR code. A QR code which you can pull up on your phone and donate to organizations that either provide housing, provide um health services, whatever the resource is, you can you can donate to that organization and help them to sustain their program so and know that your money is going towards what you wanted it to go towards. And so I would just offer that to say that can substitute for the individual that's standing in the median, you'd have a QR code and a

Public Commenter

a reference point where you can donate. And so I hope that's Thank you.

Roy Sudler, Jr.

Councilman Anderson.

David L. Anderson

Thank you, Council President. We have, uh, uh I think addressed a number of important issues and, and some misconceptions about, uh, the proposal, uh, one being that it's unnecessary because of, uh, state law. I think that was it, uh, addressed pretty well. For one, uh, you don't want to take and have people, uh, the first response be a state law that is sort of vague and not as consistent, number one. But two, uh, you the state law engages people into the criminal justice system before that becomes necessary. And that's something that we're trying to avoid. But we're trying to get, uh, two pieces. One is, uh, get people into services. And two, have an accountability piece because there's a lot of people that unless you do both, are never going to get the help. I've worked in some of these spaces for years, uh, especially helping people who've been homeless, and I can tell you that there's, uh, two sides to that. There's the people who, uh, just need a quick hand-off, and then there's the people who have many, many underlying problems. And until it's uh, quite frankly, you they have to be moved some-

David L. Anderson

time to where it's more convenient for them to, when to get help than not. But to me, this ordinance is very simple, if you look at it and look how it's drafted. It's a very consistent ordinance to just make sure people aren't in danger, that they aren't, for instance, in the medians, in places where it can be danger. If they're on the sidewalk, it's no problem. If they're, uh, the ordinance is set up so not to ban panhandling. There's no intention of that. Uh, that, to me, banning panhandling per se, uh, is something that would be problematic. I even opposed, if you go on the record in the past, a, uh, proposal to ban panhandling, because I, I mean, I believe that, in and of itself, it is a method of speech. And I don't believe in, uh, quite frankly, I'm a constitutionalist. And I, being a constitutionalist, I do not favor infringing on people's constitutional rights, and I stand against that. Now, what I also believe is that just like, uh, that people have a constitutional right to safe travel. I believe that people have, that the government has the duty to protect life. I believe the government has the duty to protect property. That's also in the Constitution. That is our

David L. Anderson

not our preference, that is our duty. Our duty under the Constitution, our duty under the law. And if the chief, uh, said we, um, we have to have a mechanism to open that up and have any authority to deal with it. That's why we have something that our attorney has done very well with, um, when it comes to, uh, the crafting to make sure that the constitutional interests are balanced, to make sure that it's something that is that is strong and something that will be that is not onerous to people. I know that there is, uh, some people disagree with the idea of accountability being an an element, but I think it's essential. And if we don't, more people are going to be hurt, and possibly people will die. I'd rather deal with a couple people's criticisms than deal with people dying. I was on a call, and it it was, uh, dealing with pedestrian safety, and it had to do with, uh, the pedestrian safety in this area, in the market mall and and the like, and I and it's something that has to stop. It's something that if we're going to be responsible, we need to make sure it happens, because it's not compassionate to close your eyes to people getting hurt. Now, if someone wants to take and have that activity, um,

David L. Anderson

they're allowed to go there to protect that right that they have. It it's just that there's something that the courts would call it, a time, place, and manner restriction. That's very common, and that's something that is uh necessary for people who need that's something that's necessary. I mean, in a median, for instance, right now in the City of Dover, you're not allowed to put a political sign. Why? Because it could be a danger to the person putting it there, and it could be a danger to the person who is uh It could be a danger to the person putting it there and and it's considered a distraction in that location to drivers. And a political sign is one is basically one of the highest uncontested levels of of protected speech. And if you're telling me that a political sign that's this that's this big uh is a distraction, how can somebody walking and nearly falling into the road not be a problem and not be a safety issue? And where where if you look in the totality of what the City of Dover actually allows in those spaces. You're not allowed to park there because it it could be a distraction, it could block the view. You're not allowed to uh have signs. You're not allowed to hitchhike, and a whole host of things that you're not allowed to do there, this is just

David L. Anderson

um being consistent uh so that people can understand what the law is instead of having to guess it. It's just protecting people in in a way that's consistent with everything else. That's the idea behind it. It's nothing to do with anything else but safety. And uh and it's um and I want to thank uh Councilman Lewis for uh bringing up a number of questions, uh because people absolutely need to hear the answers and understand them for themselves. Uh, we the city of Dover is the place that is a compassionate place. We, as you hear, we're at working on workforce development initiatives. We have initiatives to where we help fund uh kitchens to feed people who are hungry. We've uh we put hundreds of thousands of dollars into affordable housing initiatives, uh senior housing. We've we're working on other items besides. We we've had put money aside to uh do more for those who are unsheltered. Um, the city of Dover uh, in fact, uh then-Councilman, now Mayor Christiansen, Councilman Taylor, and I uh worked to make sure to bring the mental health uh component into the the Dover Police Department. I mean, this this is stuff we've done first, not last. Now you what you did, as we saw in a extensive report with the quality of

David L. Anderson

life support, you have to have an enforcement component, an accountability component, in order to make the others work. I yield, Mr. President.

Fred A. Neil

Thank you, sir.

Fred A. Neil

We could go back to at this point to approve the going back to committee for this report to go on to and then come back to us later. Yes, Councilman.

David L. Anderson

Mr. President, um, I move that we, as uh, we have recommended before, that we refer this uh, uh back to committee. And I would like to encourage, by the way, uh everyone that we've gotten a number of people on both sides of this issue, and I would encourage people to continue communicating, because your communication will make things a better ordinance. And I want you to communicate this so that when the committee develops it, we have the best version that has the most support from the most people, because that's uh, I think that's the best outcome. Give your input. Uh, I move that we refer this back to committee uh, Mr. President, as recommended.

David L. Anderson

if they want to address this specifically, should we open it up to the public now and get that over with?

Tricia K. Arndt

Wait, it's not completed.

Fred A. Neil

Point of order? Yes.

Fred A. Neil

Um, open forum, you're allowed to address agenda items. Just not agenda items that have a public hearing. In other words, like like you you can talk about any item in open forum on this agenda, but the rezoning issue.

Tricia K. Arndt

Second, Arndt.

Fred A. Neil

Councilman Rocha?

Gerald L. Rocha, Sr.

Yeah, um, so just for clarity, now that it was pulled off the consent agenda and it's on the agenda, if if we hold public comment to an open forum, they're not allowed to address any agenda items. Shouldn't we—

David L. Anderson

Got it. Okay. Now I I have no issue personally with um if these people are signed up for this particular issue, since we're going to hear them anyway. I I have no I personally I have no issue with that. Why don't we make a motion to keep moving on.

Tricia K. Arndt

When we rezoned— When we rezoned—

David L. Anderson

I I yield.

Fred A. Neil

All right. We have a motion that basically you there's no motion. So they don't know what the final motion's going to be at this time.

Tricia K. Arndt

There is no There's no tangible product.

Fred A. Neil

There's nothing There's nothing there that you can vote, so there's nothing there. We're listening to them, we'll continue to listen to them. But, you know, do you want to do it here or do you want to take care of the business that we're supposed to be doing? Councilman uh and uh Boggerty.

Andre M. Boggerty

Thank you for recognizing me, Council President. Thank you for both sides of this matter. My silence does not mean I'm not engaged. I've just learned now that silence is more powerful, so when I speak it matters. Um This is what I This is what I I want clarity on for procedural. We pulled it off the consent, we placed it on the agenda. Is that what I hear?

Fred A. Neil

Yes.

Tricia K. Arndt

not to take action.

Roy Sudler, Jr.

No, not not to take action, but technically is it on the agenda?

Tricia K. Arndt

What was technically on the agenda to start with, it was on the consent agenda sending it back to committee.

Roy Sudler, Jr.

So, once we took it off, and again I'm I just want clarity, so once we took it off the consent and it was to be heard, under what procedure or what where does it place? Is it placed back on the agenda to be heard even if we're not taking any action?

Tricia K. Arndt

It's not being heard cuz it's still in its edit form. It's still it got sent back to committee for

Roy Sudler, Jr.

Okay. I don't I don't What allows it What allows us to discuss it after it comes off the consent? Under what If we pull up our uh our our uh our meeting, under what under what item or what is the term that we're allowed to be now to discuss this consent agenda, this consent item?

City Solicitor

So, Council voted to amend the agenda to remove this item from the consent agenda and put it on for public discussion for discussion among council members. That discussion I believe has taken place, unless somebody else wants to uh speak, and so we can move on to the next item of the agenda.

Roy Sudler, Jr.

Okay. So So this is So now that the item that we're listening to under we are we are listening to it under just committee discussion, I mean council discussion, and it's not available for When if it's if it's not available for public discussion outside of public forum after we just discussed it, when are we when are they allowed to comment on it?

Tricia K. Arndt

When it when it's back on committee.

David L. Anderson

Yeah, but we can have, we hold

Fred A. Neil

the open forum when the meeting is completely over to hear everybody as long as they wish to talk about it, and 3 minutes at a time.

Andre M. Boggerty

All right. 'Cause my, my, my aim is to make sure that—I mean, I'm just going to say it. No, I, I—I mean, I'm not intimidated, you guys know that, but I, I, I don't think it's fair for the public nor Council to go through another 3 weeks of this discussion when, when we're here to at least, to at least hear, I'm not saying we have to take action, to at least hear the concerns. My position is this, that I'll—

Andre M. Boggerty

Y'all can be clapping for me now and booing me later. I love you, Uncle Earl, so I don't need you to clap. So, so, so, so it's, that's life, so it doesn't matter. So my, so my, so my, my position is—but my position on it is this:

Andre M. Boggerty

Where I frequently travel, really by Salisbury, Forest Avenue between the Walgreens, CVS, Walk-In Care C, I will admit not everybody is incoherent when they're panhandling, but I—it's it happens enough where I've seen individuals really not in a coherent state. And we have, with high school drivers, with not with people who are, you know, inclement weather. I, too, have no—nobody has never came to my window and knocked on my door, tried to get in. I've not experienced that. But what I have observed, it it it is wildly unsafe. Especially now, where we love over by the Kent—Kenton Road,

Andre M. Boggerty

and the traffic is so - it is increasing so much, it's not even if something's going to happen, it's when. And not just a pedestrian, but anybody like Councilman Rocha, I hate to pull him in, or individuals who have had to - Dr. Pillsbury and police officers - that you've had to either experience firsthand, many of you have, or work with, or see a dead body, and you're the one responsible for it. Can you imagine an innocent driver who's just going somewhere and hit somebody and now you have to live with that? Even though you probably won't be charged, there - there - there's a mental, emotional connectivity to that moment that can ruin both lives. I - I - I don't - I don't disagree with anybody being - if you don't want to give, don't give. But I do understand the necessity of letting them do it in a safe place. That median, and it's very narrow and it's not even flat. It's - it's - it's a - it's pointed, it's triangular, kind of triangular. So no - it's not stable anyway. So my quest- my - my point is, what did you say? My point is--

Public Commenter

safely of the medians so nobody will get hurt, and a driver won't have to live with that. I you know, thank you.

Public Commenter

You built it.

Fred A. Neil

Okay.

Andre M. Boggerty

I didn't build it. I--

Andre M. Boggerty

So I agree with Sudler. I agree with Sudler. Yes, amen.

Public Commenter

You are the city.

Andre M. Boggerty

I didn't - I didn't build that.

Fred A. Neil

I'm going to call for a vote to see if you want to reopen the open forum now or you wish to wait until later.

Public Commenter

Well, I'm sorry. If you speak to me, I'm addressing you.

Andre M. Boggerty

I didn't build that.

Councilwoman

He's - he's not speaking to you.

Andre M. Boggerty

I wasn't in office at that time. My point is, my point is that my - my point is, if we can do somebody safely so they can panhandle, wherever they need to panhandle, that's fine. And I - I don't want anybody fined or get jail time or any of those things. I don't want that. But I do ask that we find a way to move people along safe-

City Clerk

Councilman Neil, it's just two items.

David L. Anderson

I think I think first of all we have a motion on the floor. Just a point of order, I think first of all we have a motion on the floor. I don't know if we got a second, but if we didn't, then it would fail, then it would be back open.

Fred A. Neil

What there was a Madam Clerk, do we have a second to

City Clerk

Councilman Anderson reiterated the same motion that was made two weeks ago at CCW.

Fred A. Neil

And there's a second?

Tricia K. Arndt

I'll second.

Fred A. Neil

All seconds. What it means, it returns the to basically to staff to bring back to bring back to us at a later time to create the ordinance to bring back to public hearing. That is what is on

City Clerk

Council President Council President Neil.

Tricia K. Arndt

For introduction, yep.

Fred A. Neil

Madam Clerk, please call the roll.

Fred A. Neil

Yes.

Fred A. Neil

The motion carries 8 to 1.

Fred A. Neil

Now, again, as a courtesy to the people who are here, does the council wish to have the public forum open once again and delay the rest of the agenda, which we must have? Yes, Councilman Sudler.

City Clerk

Mrs. Hall?

Donyale M. Hall

Yes.

City Clerk

Mr. Boggerty?

Andre M. Boggerty

Yes.

City Clerk

Mr. Anderson?

David L. Anderson

Yes.

City Clerk

Dr. Pillsbury?

Julia M. Pillsbury

Yes.

Roy Sudler, Jr.

Thank you, Council President Neil for recognizing me. Um, I move to open the discussion to the public and to suspend the current rules now being that we have not completed all of the agenda items, and listen to the community now.

City Clerk

Mrs. Arndt?

Tricia K. Arndt

Yes.

City Clerk

Mr. Rocha?

Gerald L. Rocha, Sr.

Yes.

City Clerk

Dr. Sudler?

Roy Sudler, Jr.

Yes.

City Clerk

Mr. Lewis?

Brian E. Lewis

No.

Tricia K. Arndt

Second.

Fred A. Neil

It's been moved and seconded. All in favor, please say aye.

Council Members

Aye.

Fred A. Neil

Any opposed?

Fred A. Neil

Hearing none, it carries. The same rules for the--

City Clerk

Go back to the list, right?

Fred A. Neil

--open forum will continue with starting with the list as it ended, a maximum of 3 minutes. Madam Clerk.

Public Commenter

and the drug situation. Um I had an incident in front of ALDI this past summer. I was sitting at the The light turned red, and there was a car beside me on the left side, and then I'm in the middle lane, and then there's another car on the right side. And there was a man that came off the median strip, and he went to the first car that was beside me, and he's banging on the window trying to get them to he's doing this like, "Roll down your window." The guy wouldn't do it. So then he comes to my lane where I'm at, and he's wanting to he's trying to get me to he's banging on my window trying to get me to roll down the window. I am by myself. I'm a woman. It's very dark at night, and I know some people like, "Oh, it's not a big deal." But um I had nowhere to go. I couldn't back up, I couldn't move to the left, I couldn't move to the right. And like I said, I'm a woman by myself, it's dark. I don't know what this person wants. I don't know does he want to carjack my car, I don't I don't know if he's homeless like what people were saying, or if he's on drugs, I don't know. But then they go to the next car, and they're banging on their window trying to get them to open the window, and they said, "No." Then the light turns green, and the man is still standing like um you just said how those lanes are, he's standing like right here, before he can move on. And he could have gotten hit by a car. Something something needs to be done. I mean, I'm seeing the people with the that doing this, the that fentanyl thing on on the median strips. Somebody's Somebody's going to get killed. Somebody's going to get killed. We can still do the panhandling, but it needs to be not right there in the intersection. And and we need to do something. I I don't know if this is part of this, but I'm tired. I've opened my door twice in the past like It happened uh twice within 2 weeks. Once on Fulton Street, and then on um right out in front of where I live.

Public Commenter

I've seen two different young women just laying on the street, and I went to both women and I touched their bodies, and, and they felt, they felt dead. Their, their bodies were cold. We have got to do something. We have got to force these people. I know everyone, "Oh, we don't want to force people." We have got to do something, because we're losing people. And these kids, they felt dead. People just kept driving by them, just leaving them there. Um, I wanted to do this tiny house thing a long time ago. We need affordable housing, I agree with this. We need these tiny homes, but people are like, "NIMBY, not in my backyard." There's an Oxford House that's near me. I don't ever have a problem. While I was helping the one girl, the Oxford people came up in a van, and they were assisting me. You know what, I didn't even know they were right by me. They've never bothered us, they've never caused a problem. We need more of that to help these people, because our people are suffering. And there are families out there right now that they are suffering and they need, they need to get their families help. And you shouldn't have to go to mental health services to say, "Oh, I want to kill myself" before you can get help. This is, this is what is happening right now. Why do you have to say you're suicidal when you're not suicidal? We have got to be better. I'm sorry. I'm just frustrated. I'm sorry.

Fred A. Neil

Thank you.

City Clerk

Ms. Michelle Paul.

Michelle Paul

Michelle Paul, Dover, Delaware. So, I see we have this tiny community, and I think that one of the things that, um, I think is very important for us to all realize is we all are on the same page with there are issues with the people that we have in safe-

Speaker 1

...the issue being in the median. I think the issue is we don't agree with how it should be handled. Title 21 is on the books already. Chief, you were stating that DOJ is not enforcing any of the loitering laws, but the laws that are all under Title 21 don't all just deal with loitering. Now,

Speaker 1

I think one of the things that, um, we discussed and, um, some of the committee members that we discussed, um, with the OUD task force, we were talking about not only the safety issues, but how can we go through and get these people directed to services without actually arresting, you know, these individuals?

Speaker 1

And I think because you already have, um, a substation or a a mobile unit for mental health, the medians are already protected by the laws under Title 21, and it's not just the loitering laws. You have multiple laws, and I sent them all to you in your email. You have multiple laws that you can utilize right now when we leave out of this building, and you can go and start ushering people out of those medians onto into safer areas, whether it be the sidewalk, whether it be wherever. And as you go and you're ushering those people into those areas, every contact you have with the police don't have to result in arrest. When you go through, an ordinance is only going to result in a fine. So when you go through, you can't You have some people, let's be realistic, you know, we're talking about there Everyone in those areas, they're there for a reason, no matter And we don't know their reason. So if they're there because they're on opio-, you know, because they are doing drugs and things like that, we have to have an avenue so we can direct those people to services.

Kim Paul

and, in some cases, it may be warranted to go through and give them the choice of do you want to be arrested, and do you want to go to jail, or do you want to seek treatment? Some people will go through, if they have the option for treatment, as opposed to incarceration, they will take that option for treatment. Can we force them? No, we cannot.

Kim Paul

But we're actually going, you're saying, oh, well, it's less harmful if they're if they're not arrested under the state law. You can't You're contradicting yourself when you make those statements. If you are going to give them a fine and you want And you're talking about you want something done, then actually do it under the state law where it's a harsher consequence, so you can actually get these people to services.

Kim Paul

We're not talking about arresting them. We're talking about directing them to the services that they need. The people that are in those medians, we're not saying that the medians aren't safe. We want them ushered off so that they can be have safety. We just don't want people wandering, and where they can

Kim Paul

panhandle or get, you know, get their donations for themselves in a safe manner. But right now, they're not safe. Right now, we do have a lot of issues, and it is a controversy. But you cannot go through and create an ordinance that's going to create a bigger issue for them. Explain to me, how how do you expect these people to pay when they're already begging for money? That just doesn't make sense. Help me make sense of that.

Council President

Your three minutes is up.

Kim Paul

Three minutes is up?

Fred A. Neil

Thank you, Ms. Paul.

Kim Paul

I'm going to leave this to y'all. And um for each one of y'all that um your districts, this is coming from the homeless campaign and they went through to uh

Fred A. Neil

Ms. Paul, while you're passing that out, can we call on that next person up?

City Clerk

We'll call on that next person.

City Clerk

Apostle Chester Watson.

City Clerk

Three - you have - you have three minutes on the clock.

Chester Watson

Thank you.

City Clerk

You're welcome.

Chester Watson

I want to thank everyone for being here, and I hope everyone that have their ears open, being that...

Fred A. Neil

Your address, wha- may we have your address, please?

Chester Watson

Uh, I'm Apostle Chester Watson, Dover, 21 Park Haven Drive.

Chester Watson

I, um, I understand it brought - it was brought to my attention because I'm always up around the city somewhere doing something. Uh, I do a lot of work with Iron Sharpens Iron with Prophet Cooper and his wife. Um, but I hear about the homeless, the people in the median strip, people in tents in people's yards and parking lots, and and I wondered how this can even come to an ordinance that if a person is hungry, how do we address these people when you see them? There's a few people in here right now, I have helped sit - just passing through in the median strip. They're hungry. I roll my window down, or I'm on my motorcycle and I give them some money to get something to eat. But, everything I've heard is like, what are they really saying? Are they saying what they're really feeling in the heart, or they really saying what they really...

Public Commenter

him? Each one of y'all sitting here tonight.

Public Commenter

If your child tonight was out there on the street, in that median strip,

Public Commenter

hungry, looking for a sandwich,

Public Commenter

would you tell somebody to ride by them?

Public Commenter

Or would you take time to say, "My child is hungry, I hope somebody will feed them"?

Public Commenter

That's the place where we all should be thinking right now. If it was my child, how would I handle this?

Public Commenter

Everyone in here tonight is probably only two paychecks away from losing your home, losing your car, have no food to eat, children can't go to the college.

Public Commenter

Just two paychecks. If we look at the government right now, shut down, some of the people that had good jobs is crying right now and running to food banks, trying to find food to eat.

Public Commenter

But we here arguing and fussing and raising our voices and acting unseemly over somebody that is hungry and staying there?

Public Commenter

You know, everybody ain't on drugs, but we do have them.

Public Commenter

The Bible say let the wheat and tare grow together. When I come, I will separate it.

Public Commenter

We got to deal with these people where they at. They hungry, have no place, some of them don't even know where their mom and dad's at.

Public Commenter

But they out here and they looking for all of

Public Commenter

us to come together and help them out.

Fred A. Neil

Madam Clerk.

City Clerk

Mr. Cleveland Wilson. Mr. Cleveland Wilson?

Cleveland Wilson

I guess I'm going to start talking on my way up because I got a lot of talking to do.

Cleveland Wilson

My name is Cleveland Wilson. I'm from Kirkwood Street, Dover, Delaware. First thing I'm going to say to you is last week, a young boy walked up to me. He said, "Cleve," he calls me OG, "I don't want to rob nobody, but I'm hungry. Man, I've been talking to people for weeks. What should I do?" We gave him some money, we gave him a conversation. Okay? The reason why I'm mentioning this to you is because those people that stand in the middle of them streets, they hungry. I heard somebody say, "I don't want them to get hurt." They already hurt. They hungry. I would invite any of you to let's spend a night in one of these little camps. Let's not take no food with us so we can understand what they going through. The things that we call ourselves doing for them as far as safety, they call it an acceptable risk because they hungry. They need all the things that we have. We've talked about this before. They need all the things that we have, and I don't care what you say about an ordinance, if a man stands on that street for 352 days and you give him a $10 ordinance every day, you gave him over $3,500

Speaker

and fined. So sooner or later, he's going to go to court somewhere for something.

Speaker

Now what? I got more problems. Because my city just put $3,500 on me.

Speaker

Lord have mercy. Let's just think for a second. What if it was our child? What would we do then?

Speaker

Would we usher them to the side? Yes, we want to protect them. I'm all for that. Usher them to the side. Tell them, hey, this is a more acceptable place to stand. I'm not for fining them.

Speaker

And if you fine them, we will be there. You got to fine us. I'm being very serious here. You're going to have to fine us.

Speaker

And somebody said something about sooner or later, I believe the chief said sooner or later they're going to test that in court. I think Shell's already left, but we going to test that.

Speaker

Lord have mercy, some things we can't allow. I'm all for working together. Anything I can do to work with any of you, we will do that.

Speaker

But I'm never for punishing people that can't do no better.

Speaker

You know what I mean? Again, I'm not the guy that that stands up here and gives every cent I have to the poor. I'm not going to tell you that.

Speaker

Because my mama had a rule: You take care of the people that take care of themselves. But then we got to teach them how to take care of theyself. We can't just fine them and throw them away.

Fred A. Neil

Madam Clerk.

City Clerk

Vonda Smack?

Vonda Smack

Yo!

Fred A. Neil

Go ahead, Ms. Smack.

Vonda Smack

Vonda Smack, District 3, Dover, Delaware. Let me get out my notes here. We've said a lot here tonight, and thank you for the dialogue you and I had concerning this. Sorry I couldn't tell you that I liked your ordinance you're trying to do, because I couldn't agree with it because of what I stand for. I'm out in the community, ten toes on the ground. So when you started talking about these medians, what I do for three weeks, go to medians at all different times of the day and speak to the people to find out why they're on the median. We have some that are here tonight who gonna come up and let y'all know, because I don't mind meeting people where they are. I've even given some some resources, even asked some, "Do you want to get help with your addiction?" Even ran some off of the road, the one you're talking about that's slanted, so I agree. You know what I mean? But most of these people who are in the median, they're homeless. They're trying to get money for a hotel because Dover, Kent County, do not have resources. I mean, you can ask the people behind me that are here representing the unsheltered. But we can't I don't know why we're talking about amending and, you know, doing an article. The whole doggone ordinance need to be thrown out. The idea that you got that you stated here today, why the, you know, through the OUD,

Public Commenter

And we've been uh I've been getting educated on it. I read the blue ribbon. Thank you, mayor. Why can't that be something because that part what he is trying to do which I believe is unconstitutional. You violating people rights. You rather get them out of your way so you don't got to see it, because y'all more worried about what makes Dover greater, the revitalization of Dover. That's what you're You're smiling. But that's what it's about. You're smiling. You really

Public Commenter

Where is she at? This lady here is waiting on her disability from the federal government. That's why she is standing on a median to make money because she's homeless. She got put out of her house. We all know what's going on with the federal government. This lady's getting it the best way she can, and that's her fiancé sitting next to her. They're not on drugs, but y'all just looking at it from an addiction point, some of y'all. And the ones that email me back, thank you. Thank you for the dialogue. But I'm telling y'all, this tough Tony act that y'all got, our county, our city is in survival mode. There are people in here today that are living paycheck to paycheck, and some I can't even say paycheck to paycheck because they done borrowed already on the last on the paycheck that's coming. So, what I'm trying to tell you, you sitting here trying to throw an ordinance, but where are the resources?

City Clerk

Melissa Jeter.

City Clerk

Please give your name and address when you come to the—

Melissa Jeter

My name is Melissa Jeter, Dover, Delaware. And yes, I, um, have a lot to say, um, but I know that I need to keep this brief. But as I have sat here tonight and, um, observed everyone, and I'm going to look you all in the eye, I'm looking at leadership, people who are sitting high and looking low. But I am reminded of a time from Jesus Christ, when you sit high, when you are a leader, you are to serve. So, I've heard you, uh, Mr. Anderson, use the word accountability, accountability, excuse me, about five times. So I wanted to, uh, look up the definition. Accountability compromises four core components: participation, evaluation, transparency, and feedback mechanisms. It reminded me of Abraham Maslow's hierarchy of needs. And when a person's physiological needs are not met, then their sense of belonging is challenged. So, I just recently, um, got my degree in human services and working with this type of population, with people, and it really appalls me, sitting here looking at leadership, how we cannot come together. What is our relational integrity? I am very, this—

Robin R. Christiansen

Ma'am, your time is up.

Public Commenter

One last thing. Why does Kent County Capital School District have 433 homeless students? Tell me. Children, 433, and the facts don't lie.

Public Commenter

actually hurts me because as a member and as a Christian and as a member of Calvary Baptist Church, we serve. And serving starts with leadership. This is absolutely disgusting. I I really don't believe it, and I sit here and I look at some of you all. You visit our churches, but then we sit here and we cannot get along. So I'm going to leave you with a scripture as I was sitting here, and it's in Mark chapter 4 and it talks about, well, leadership, Mark chapter 10. And I'm actually going to read it in The Message translation, and it starts at about verse 41. It says, "When the other 10 heard of this conversation, they lost their tempers with James and John. Jesus got them together to settle things down. You've observed how godless rulers—and that's lowercase g—throw their weight around, he said. And when people get a little power, how quickly it goes to their heads. It's not going to be that way with you. Whoever wants to become great must become a servant. Whoever wants to be first among you must be your slave." So I think the word of God, and I know that the word of God is true, we need to reference the scriptures because tonight this is chaos, and this disappoints my heart. We need to get together. We need to seek ye first the kingdom of God, and we need to pray. And that's all I have to say tonight.

Shyanne Miller

My name is Shyanne Miller. I live in Wilmington. I am a volunteer with the Housing Campaign, and I work with the Delaware Working Families Party.

Shyanne Miller

I just want to talk a little bit about what we're dealing with when we talk about homelessness. I know we want to say that this bill is really about traffic safety, but the reality is that we all are here talking about homelessness. And I think that Kent County is in dire straits. I I think that Dover is in dire straits. It's expensive to live here, and a lot of people that are behind me are are speaking about how difficult it is to be able to maintain a living in the city and to maintain a living in the state. And so I'd like to make sure that we're talking about what we need to be talking about: the homelessness numbers up front.

City Clerk

Cheyenne Miller?

Shyanne Miller

Every year, they do a point-in-time count for the entire state, and they count how many people are living outside on the coldest night of the year. In Kent County, they found 266 people. When they went to count how many year-round shelter beds there are in Kent County, they found 165. There were not enough shelter beds for the number of people that were living outside.

Shyanne Miller

Every year, the state makes sure that they count the number of students that are experiencing homelessness in our schools. Capital School District has 458 students that are experiencing homelessness. Caesar Rodney has 345 students that are experiencing homelessness. Smyrna School District has 234 students that are experiencing homelessness.

Shyanne Miller

I just want us to be clear that when we're talking about people, it really is children, women, men. And I also want to be clear that what we're talking about...

Public Commenter

people who are dealing with addiction, or just generally people who are dealing with addiction, we actually have a lot of data from our state that talks about those who are struggling.

Public Commenter

When we talk about drug overdoses in Delaware, we had 338 individuals die last year from a drug overdose. Half of those people that died were experiencing homelessness.

Public Commenter

How many in Kent County, what percent received addiction services when they went to a shelter? 0%.

Public Commenter

And so what we know is the reality is that there are not enough services, and yet the only thing we're seeing from this body are fines.

Public Commenter

The city can do more. Create an office of homeless services. Coordinate to get more outreach on the ground. The more that you send out police, the more that you send out people to do sweeps, the more that you give out fines, the harder it is for outreach services to build the trust that's necessary for people to get the resources they need. No one is going to say yes to somebody they think is going to lock them up, or they think is going to fine them. No one's going to accept that help if they think that they're going to be punished for it.

Public Commenter

And so I urge this body to take responsibility to care for people, and put the housing up that people need, add the permanent supportive units that people need, add the wrap-around services that people need, and to support the outreach workers that people need. Thank you.

Michaela Ray

Hello. My name is Michaela Ray. I am a citizen here in Dover. I oppose Ordinance 25 2025-21 to fine our neighbors for helping others.

Fred A. Neil

Thank you very much.

Michaela Ray

I want to I get a little nervous when I'm talking, so I'm just going to speak from the heart. I stand before you as a child of God.

City Clerk

Alicia Young.

City Clerk

Alicia Young.

City Clerk

Okay. Um I'm sorry if I say this wrong. Makeisha Ray? I can't

Michaela Ray

I am a veteran who has served my country. I am a breast cancer survivor. I'm a domestic violence survivor. I'm a single mother.

Michaela Ray

I work. I know what it is like to be without a home. I have lost my home at times.

Michaela Ray

So for you guys to, Councilman Anderson, for you to say that it's wrong for us to help when God's Word tells us to help people,

Michaela Ray

I say that is a shame on you, sir.

Michaela Ray

Shame on you.

Public Commenter

Mhm. And I want to like I say, I want to keep it short and sweet, because I do get very, very nervous. But I would like to say I say no to this ordinance. Thank you.

Audience Member

It's the truth.

Michaela Ray

Shame on you, and I want to say it again.

Michaela Ray

I know you and we have spoken to each other, and for you to say that I would be fined when I need help, I need help myself. There's times that I need help myself.

Fred A. Neil

Thank you. Madam Clerk?

City Clerk

Danesha McCray?

Michaela Ray

There's no way that you can stand before me and say that you're a man of the Constitution. Our Constitution is founded on God's Word, and it says to help us.

City Clerk

Adam Windett? I think he left. He was sitting next to you.

Michaela Ray

There's no way that you can stand before me and say you love God and turn your back on other people.

City Clerk

Aaron Snowen, S-N-O-E-N?

Aaron Snowen

My name is Aaron Snowen. I live here in Dover. I just recently got a place at 39 South State Street, and I'm happy to be a resident here of this city. I heard about this issue and so I kind of threw something together really quick. Just going to read it for you guys. It says, "I'm kind of tired of hearing all the homelessness negativity, um the people in our communities, and people are treating them like criminals. Like they're a disease, or a plague. Let's stop for a second, think about who they are. They are sons, they are daughters, they are husbands, they are wives, they're children. They are people who have served in the military, they're people that maybe grew up with a traumatic childhood, and never just had a chance to heal from it. They're hurting so badly on the inside. These are people stuck for years in a cycle of simply trying to survive day and night. And they're simply trying to endure the cold. Most times, being homeless, there's nowhere to go, let alone to get a meal, or a shower, clean clothes.

Public Commenter

waiting in line all day just to meet your basic needs. At the end of the day, maybe some homeless take a few sips of whiskey at night to warm up. Maybe there's a person who doesn't feel safe on the streets who keeps traveling all night long to try and find a safe place to lay down. And maybe they use drugs to help them get through the night, the next day when it's daylight, when they finally find a safe, warm place to lay down. Some people are mentally ill and just cannot mentally get it together, or they're disabled. Perhaps they need SSI. If they're broken homeless, would you rather have them outside a store asking people for their change, or what if they have a social disorder and are afraid to approach people, and the best thing they can do is simply hold a sign asking for help? If you take that ability from them and ask for the ability for them to ask for help, most will turn to crime. The ones that can't afford to eat or can't afford to feed their habits. Which is worse? A person standing in the mall flying a sign asking for help, or the guy in the mall stealing food and clothes? I was taught by my uncle, who's deceased now, who was homeless for 40 years, that you only fly a sign in case of an emergency, extreme emergency, when you cannot find work. That's been the case for me. Excuse me.

Unknown Speaker

It's all right, bud.

Public Commenter

Apologies, I lost my place. Um, my uncle, you know, he was homeless out there for 40 years, and he died out there being homeless. And it's been rough. And he told me not to fly a sign unless it's for emergency. I flew a sign a few weeks ago when I was in an emergency situation. I didn't have a tent, I was out in the cold. I stood out in front of, uh, Camden. I made a whopping $10 the first hour I was out there, and another $10 for the next two hours. I took my $20, and I got a cheap tent for the night. There is people out there doing this thing

Public Commenter

just to survive and they need your help. Would you fine Jesus for being homeless?

Public Commenter

What about the good Samaritan that stopped and helped the guy on the side of the road? Would you fine him for helping somebody?

Public Commenter

I keep on saying this this this country is built on the Constitution, it's built on the Bible. Let's not forget that. Let's love our neighbors as ourselves.

Fred A. Neil

Madam Clerk.

City Clerk

David Green.

City Clerk

Eve Dorman.

Eve Dorman

Hi, I'm Eve Dorman. I'm currently homeless, and me and who just talked was my fiancé.

Fred A. Neil

How about your address, ma'am?

Eve Dorman

I'm homeless.

City Clerk

She said she was homeless.

Eve Dorman

I don't have one right now currently.

Fred A. Neil

Dover?

Eve Dorman

Yeah, Dover.

City Clerk

Dover's fine for an address. That works.

Eve Dorman

Um, you guys have been talking about homeless and I've been sitting here sitting and thinking that we need your help. I am currently, as of today, 13 weeks pregnant with our son, David, Jr. We need your help getting off these streets. Y'all's resources are trying to split me and David apart. We can't have that. We have our separation anxiety. We can't. If he's gone for too long, I worry. If I'm gone too long, he worries. And y'all are trying to split us apart? No, we need your guys's help to get us into housing. We have a voucher. He has a voucher, I don't. And the rent here or anywhere in Delaware is too expensive for us. We've had people come up to us and ask, "How much is your voucher?"

Public Commenter

not to work, not that much. We ask for help to get a house, or even an apartment that's a little bit nice for me and this child. Cuz in May of next year, I will be giving birth. I want a safe place and a safe home for this child. On the streets, out here, with the violence and the drug use, I can't be around that because of PTSD and trauma. Like, um, whoever said it was, the trauma from past experiences can reoccur because of the drugs.

Audience Member

Yes.

Public Commenter

The heroin and the meth, and whatever else is out there, is not good for us pregnant women on these streets. And another thing, the veterans on these streets. I am a recent veteran of this year, just this February, because of my military accident. And people saying that, "Oh, because that was in the military, I didn't actually serve." Call my mother, call my father, call some of my TikTok families, they will tell you I served. I have every right to have an apartment, or even a nice little house on the corner street to help raise this child. All I ask is for a little bit more assistance. And y'all's EBT is messing with that. There's three of us on EBT and WIC, who are only getting $75. That hasn't done us enough this week, just to help feed me and this child. We need more than that. We need our 200 and something a month. That will get us through the entire month, not just the 75. So if you think, in God's will, please help us. That's all we ask.

Roy Sudler, Jr.

Councilman Sudler.

Roy Sudler, Jr.

Thanks, thank you, Dr. S- Mayor, I yield to the mayor, and then I'll

Robin R. Christiansen

Young lady, if you would see me at the end of the meeting, if you are indeed a veteran, I will remind everyone in this room that I had the mayor's challenge to end veterans' homelessness. If you have your DD-214 for your discharge, we need to see it so we can get you hooked up with some help.

Public Commenter

Currently, Mayor, I do not have it. It was burned in a house fire that I had to save a young four-year-old child from.

Robin R. Christiansen

So what we'll do is I need your name, tell me where you served, if you indeed are have received an honorable discharge, we will be able to get you some help.

Public Commenter

Yes, sir.

Robin R. Christiansen

Council President.

Roy Sudler, Jr.

Thank you, Council President, for recognizing me. Also, young lady, um, the Veterans Multi-Service Center, which is right here next to uh 9 East Tap House is on the first floor. They also can assist you, and I'm sure that the mayor probably has uh connection there as well.

Public Commenter

Can I make a statement about this as well? I have asked veterans about this, and with certain veterans of my family as well, including my biological mother and two of my biological uncles, they have been on the streets before, and they will have not received service like this. My mother has been here in Dover, Delaware before, and she never received it. So, I am having high expectations for you guys to help us with this.

City Clerk

Roy Sudler, Jr.?

Roy Sudler, Jr.

Doctor.

City Clerk

Doctor.

Roy Sudler, Jr.

Aye.

Robin R. Christiansen

Mr. President, I would just assure everyone that I will do my best to assist this young lady. I can't— I cannot promise success, but I will do my best.

Roy Sudler, Jr.

The VMC, Veterans Multi-Service Center, it's it's literally, like, a couple doors down, in Dover.

Roy Sudler, Jr.

Mr. President.

Fred A. Neil

Yes, Dr. Sudler.

Roy Sudler, Jr.

And, and let me give you my number as well, if it's, for the public. Three-zero—if you have something to write, and I can also, cuz I'm in housing as well, so I can have a lot of resources for housing.

City Clerk

Brandon Fletcher.

Brandon Fletcher. Um

Good evening, my name is Brandon Fletcher. Um, I live in Wilmington, um, and I'm a volunteer organizer with the HOMES Campaign, um, which is a statewide advocacy group focused on housing justice in Delaware. Um, first I want to start by thanking the council for taking Ordinance 2024-21 off the agenda. I think that was the right move. Um, but I still wanted to speak tonight because taking it up for consideration still shows that there's a misunderstanding of how to address homelessness. Um, this kind of ordinance does not fix the problem. It criminalizes poverty. You cannot fine or arrest someone out of homelessness. That approach only makes things worse and wastes taxpayer money. If we really want to address this issue, I urge this council um to invest in Housing First, which is a proven approach that provides people with stable housing first that connects them to the support and services they need. Housing is the foundation. You can't expect someone to stabilize their life when they're living on the street or being ticketed for asking for help. Policies like this also raise serious cons-

Public Commenter

Go ahead.

Roy Sudler, Jr.

302-465-

Public Commenter

constitutional concerns. Um courts have ruled um again and again that peacefully asking for help, panhandling, is protected under the First Amendment. Um and Dover would be opening itself up to costly lawsuits um and damaging its reputation for a policy that doesn't solve anything.

Public Commenter

Um and so, while I appreciate this ordinance was pulled, um I urge the council not to bring it back or uh repackage it again um, and instead move towards real, evidence-based solutions, uh which is affordable housing, outreach, compassionate Housing First that lifts people up instead of punishing them.

Public Commenter

Um and lastly, I'm I'm a Christian, um I I feel like I'm around a lot of Christians on this council. And so I just want to um end my public comment with um one verse that sticks out to me, and it's Isaiah 10. Um and it says,

Public Commenter

"Woe to those who make unjust laws, to those who issue oppressive decrees, to deprive the poor of their rights and withhold justice from the oppressed of my people.

Public Commenter

What will you do on the day of reckoning, when disaster comes from afar? To whom will you leave your riches? To whom will you run for help? Nothing will remain but to cringe among the captives." Thank you.

Council President

Madam Clerk.

City Clerk

Dawn Strother? Ms. Dawn Strother?

Council President

Okay.

City Clerk

Randy Blackson? Mr. Randy Blackson?

City Clerk

Lori

City Clerk

Weidman.

City Clerk

Shannon Yarnall.

Shannon Yarnall

I yield my time to True London.

Fred A. Neil

Where is Lori Stone?

City Clerk

Oh, Lori Stone.

True London

Hello, everyone. My name is True London. Um I don't come here to talk about the agenda on this, unfortunately. Um I am 21 years old.

Fred A. Neil

Your address?

True London

Uh Dover, Delaware, sir.

Fred A. Neil

Thank you.

True London

You're welcome.

True London

Um silence has protected everyone but me. And I feel like what y'all are doing, trying to do with this law, is completely and irreparably it's going to cause damage to the homeless that are out and in the medians. And I know for a fact that some of these people on this board will look at homeless people and say that they do need to be in jail, or that they do need to go get a job to do something with their time.

True London

Um I am 21 years old, and for 13 years I endured emotional, mental, and sexual trauma that no child should have to face. When I was five years old, the abuse began when and continued until I was 11. When I finally found the courage to tell my mother, Donyale Hall, um what happened, she told me that because she had gone through similar pain and survived, I could, too. And instead of protecting me, she used religion to silence me, and she threw scripture in my face while defending the very person who violated me. I was called a predator for loving women, yet the real predator was excused and shielded. I was told I was an abomination all while being forced to live under the same roof as my abuser. In the Bible, in Leviticus chapter 18 verse 9 in the New King James Version, it says, um, "You shall not uncover the nakedness of your sister, either the daughter of your father or your mother." I guess that part was easy to skip. I will never forget being seven years old and trying to

Public Commenter

explain the only way I knew how, what happened to me, saying it felt like a hot dog was sliding into a bun. And instead of compassion, I was told, "Well, he didn't rape you." And those are your words, Donyale Hall.

Public Commenter

That moment, something broke inside of me. I realized that my safety and healing were never a priority. So how is you and these other Congress people going to help others that need help if you couldn't even help your own daughter? I'm very confused.

Public Commenter

You never-- I was never a priority, and you only cared about the protection of appearances. And I believe that some of the council members know as well.

Public Commenter

Um, I've since learned that I wasn't the only one, and that other children were hurt, silenced, and pushed aside, all to preserve a false image of faith and family.

Public Commenter

My mother's refusal to act upon-- to act allowed harm to continue, and instead of seeking professional help or justice, she sought advice from a friend. If not for that friend, and not Donyale Hall, my abuse would never have been reported.

Public Commenter

Um, without her courage, I might not have survived. What devastates me the most is watching history repeat itself. My younger siblings have suffered, too, at the hands of Congresswoman Donyale Hall, and I believe that she should not be in the position that she's in.

Public Commenter

Um, and that is It's never my burden to carry, and I feel that I didn't protect my little sisters because as my mother, you failed to protect me and them as well.

Public Commenter

Um, this cycle of denial, protection of abusers, and emotional violence has destroyed lives. It's a disgrace to call that love.

Public Commenter

To those who claim to care about the community while neglecting their own home, you have caused irreparable harm. To those who knew and stayed silent, you you share that responsibility.

Public Commenter

I am no longer silenced. I am no longer protecting anyone else's image or comfort. I speak because I deserve to be heard. I speak because truth matters, and I speak because other survivors need to know that they are not alone and that it is never too late to reclaim your voice.

Public Commenter

to every survivor who hears this: One, I believe you. I stand with you, and you are not what was done to you. I yield my time. Thank you.

Fred A. Neil

Madam Clerk.

City Clerk

There was somebody else on their way out that I thought caught.

City Clerk

Is it Ms. Weigand? Is that...

Ronald

I'm going to help speak for her. Point of order, um, isn't there a roving microphone for people that have problems coming forward?

City Clerk

There's a, yeah. Yeah.

City Clerk

Nobody's...

City Clerk

She's what?

City Clerk

Oh.

Ronald

Bring a microphone.

Ronald

They're bringing it to her now.

City Clerk

They didn't say anything, I didn't know that. We didn't know she needed a microphone, they didn't say anything.

Public Commenter

...paying the rent. And we're staying the first day in a in a motel, Relax Inn. Well, it ain't cheap.

City Clerk

Could you just give us your name and and your address?

Ronald

She's trying to get comfortable, give her one second.

City Clerk

Okay. Okay. Thank you.

Ronald

I'm going to speak for her.

City Clerk

Okay.

Ronald

We live in Dover.

Public Commenter

Okay. Like that? And we're paying $70 a day.

City Clerk

Your n- your name, sir?

Ronald

Ronald.

Ronald

Um, we've been on the street since, uh, January. And we'll we'll be out there panhandling, trying to get money to, uh,

Public Commenter

It ain't cheap.

Public Commenter

We get food stamps. Well, let me take that back. We had food stamps. We got 75 bucks. Now, $75 might look good, but as far as, well, we won't go there. $75 don't go far.

Roy Sudler, Jr.

Can we pause the time, please? Thank you. I'm sorry for the interruption.

Public Commenter

Is that a little bit better?

Roy Sudler, Jr.

Talk plainly so that Council can hear you.

1 (Public Comment)

Lending a helping hand. I want to give me half a sandwich or whatever. We ain't picky. Guy gave me $0.50. This is all I got. I would not compel complain. I have no reason to complain. But I see this Christians out here in their cars with crosses and saying we love Jesus and all that. Well, I hate to tell you this, but they got about as much feeling as a zombie.

Public Commenter

Got it. All right. I've been staying out here close to four months, doing the same thing, day in, day out.

Public Commenter

Now, I was born and raised Christian. My dad's a Southern Baptist preacher. Now, I don't look like a preacher's son, but my dad was a Southern Baptist preacher, my mom was a Sunday school teacher. I was raised Southern Baptist all my life.

Public Commenter

Now, we got people out here who don't think twice about...

2 (Public Comment)

Not all of us.

1 (Public Comment)

No. No. No. No. Not all of them.

2 (Public Comment)

It's much more.

1 (Public Comment)

Nine times out of 10. Yeah. Man, they have no heart. They got no soul. None. And that's not even I mean, that ain't even just Christians. That's half the people in Dover. They act like they're just walking zombies, like they're doing a Court of St. John shuffle. They don't know if they're coming or going. And then you got people out here that are on drugs. Nodded out in the middle of traffic, holding up traffic. Don't know if they're going to stand or fall. The little wind will blow. You will just wait for them to fall. But they never fall down. And in Facebook on Facebook that said whoever holds a sign is on drugs. I beg to differ. I've been clean since 90. I haven't had a liquor drop a liquor since 90. I haven't had any relapses on heroin since 90. So whoever said that where

Public Commenter

that everybody who holds a sign is on drugs, well they can take that and shove that where the sun don't shine.

Public Commenter

So we're out here trying to do the best we can. We're supposed to get married in Dover in in December.

Public Commenter

Yeah, that's easier said than done. You pay rent, then you've got then you've got to hold money up to try and pay 50 bucks for a marriage license. Then you've got to find a preacher to do it. After that, and if you want them to do it, they want 120 bucks for the license and the marriage. Well, his name ain't DuPont.

Public Commenter

So I want to end with this. Just think of this thing, what would God do? And I want to leave it as that.

Fred A. Neil

Thank you, sir.

City Clerk

Stephen Pierce.

Public Commenter

There needs to be resources that the city can work together on a non non-partisan, you know, kind of unit to bring, revitalize, revitalize, revitalization to the city. I'm sorry, I'm tired. But right now what we are doing is horrible, because there are people in here that genuinely want help. Um, over the summer after that little campaign that I ran for City Council or what not, when I lost, I actually immersed myself in Dr. Hawkins' church, uh People's Community over on South Bradford. I stayed there for the entire summer uh in the back part where, what's her name, Ms. Francis has her homeless shelter, and I helped out with the children upstairs. I helped out cleaning up the back alley that's in the back, I mean from top to bottom. And it's like there are currently members on the board of that church that sit here, and just ask yourself, how many times have you guys actually been in that building throughout this summer? And I was there almost every single day. Um, and also with that being said, how are we actually making sure that these people that you guys are giving money to are actually doing what they need to do instead of just saying something and not actually showing for it? Um, let's just make sure that we are actually doing what we need to do as a city to make sure we can continue to thrive. And then homelessness, it's a business. Let's not act like we don't know that. We're going to find all these people so we can at least have somewhere to fall back onto when we want to revitalize the city, we know that. So how can we find something or a better agreement to be able to compensate that? Because if we all know that as the people, you guys all know that, I feel like it's just stupid to keep trying to do it, you know? But, that's it for me. Um, if you want more, you can follow me on Instagram and Facebook.

Stephan Pierce

Stephan.

City Clerk

Stephan Pierce.

Stephan Pierce

Hello, um I just wanted to say that um, there's definitely a lot going on in this city and me being a conservative myself, I do genuinely believe that the city is not a uh social hub, meaning, you know, don't come directly to the city for help, if that makes sense.

Public Commenter

No.

Stephan Pierce

It doesn't? Do you mind coming to tell me how it doesn't?

Public Commenter

I spoke earlier.

Stephan Pierce

Okay. Well, in my opinion, I do genuinely believe that

Council President

Madam Clerk.

City Clerk

Ms. Belinda Mayne.

Belinda Mayne

Belinda Mayne, Dover, Delaware.

Belinda Mayne

Today is actually making me very stuffy and very heartfelt that we, as a council—and yes, I consider myself a council member because I am here at every single meeting—

Belinda Mayne

um, but we all need to work together because not only is the people that are on drugs, the homeless people, they are the citizens of Dover, whether they have a house, whether they have a tent, whether they have a piece of concrete to stand on.

Robin R. Christiansen

Thank you.

Belinda Mayne

We still need to help those people create that foundation for somewhere where we all live, in a house that's warm and comfortable and that's safe for our families and our kids.

Belinda Mayne

We need to help those who need it. That gentleman right there who is looking to get married in December, we need to help him. Whether we give him $50 for that marriage certificate so that he can get married and be happy,

Public Commenter

citizens of the city, no matter what. And we, even me, my children will volunteer to help. If need be, we donate, we do what we can. My daughter, if she gets accepted to Polytech—when she gets accepted to Polytech—is going in volunteering to help the homeless. Collect clothing, collect food, hand things out to the homeless. But we need to make the information for these people to get what they need—and I don't mean these people, I mean our citizens, because they are not these people, our citizens who need it the most get the resources or are directed, whether they are bused to the area to say, 'Pick up a pamphlet, this is what we're going to help you get to.' We need to assist them a little bit further than just, 'Oh, maybe next time.' Because we are all guilty of donating a dollar or two dollars to a panhandler. We are guilty of giving a McDonald's meal to a homeless person. Don't say that we won't be in their shoes, because we will eventually be in their shoes, and we will need their help. So we help, they help, and it goes on. Remember butterflies: you create one butterfly, you create many, especially if you touch each and every person. Thank you.

Belinda Mayne

and then show him a way of here, here's where you can begin you and your wife's life in a place that is stable, that is warm, that is filled with stuff that's going to make them survive a lot longer than most people out on the street that don't have anything.

Belinda Mayne

We need to do more as a city for those people who are in our city. Whether they come in and and stay for an hour, they are still considered—

Robin R. Christiansen

Ladies and gentlemen, that is the end of those who have signed up to speak, and we will now continue on with the regular council meeting, and

Robin R. Christiansen

We have these this item on the agenda. We now have first reading of proposed Ordinance 2025-18 amending Chapter 2, Administration, Article V, Finance by Section 2-2 42-7 - Vehicle Billable Rates. Final action by the City Council will take place during the second reading on November 24th, 2025.

Robin R. Christiansen

The proposed ordinance 2025-18 is available at the entrance of the Council Chambers or on the city's website at www.cityofdover.com under Government or by contacting the city clerk's office at 302-736-7008 or the city clerk at dover.de.us.

Robin R. Christiansen

And I will request of Mr. Hugg to brief on this item.

David Hugg

Thank you, Council President. This is a relatively straightforward change to our billing rates that are established in the code. We were asking to update them to match the FEMA reimbursement rates, and the rates will be used by the federal government for federal grants and for other federal activities to make us consistent with that, with those rates.

Robin R. Christiansen

Any questions for staff? Seeing none,

Fred A. Neil

Madam Clerk, Bennett, for the introduction of the ordinance in accordance to Section 1-9 of the Delaware Code. Madam Clerk.

City Clerk

There is no action at this time. Ordinance 2025-18, amending Chapter 2, Administration, Article 5, Finance, by adding Section 2-427, New Vehicle Billable Rates. This constitutes the first reading. The final reading is scheduled to take place November 24th, 2025.

Fred A. Neil

Next, we have the reading of proposed Ordinance 2025-20, amending Chapter 106, Traffic and Vehicles, Article 1, In General, by adding Section 106-18, Strictly Enforced, by Councilman Anderson. Final action on this by the City Council will take place during the second reading on November 24th, 2025. The proposed Ordinance 2025-20 is available at the entrance of the Council or on the City's website at www.cityofdover.com under Government or by contacting the City Clerk's office at 302-736-7008 or cityclerk@dover.de.us. As a sponsor, would you care to address the issue, Councilman Anderson?

David L. Anderson

Yeah, thank you. Thank you very much, Mr. President. And I this this particular ordinance is allowing the City of Dover to strictly enforce the traffic laws

David L. Anderson

in residential districts. Only residential districts. We're not trying to create speed traps, we're not trying to uh have diverted officers to Route 13 or or 1 or anywhere, but but what this is all about is making sure that proper stopping distances are being adhered to, giving the tools then when we're actually enforcing the law um in an area that the police officers have the ability to strictly enforce them. Uh that that's something that's required under state law if you're going to do it or else you're you're stuck with uh enforcement uh basically 11 miles above the speed limit. It's uh one step. Uh I don't think it's the uh the total solution, but it's just one piece of the solution uh when it comes to speeding in our neighborhoods. Um the There are There is an amendment that is uh proposed for consideration um which we'll not take up tonight. However, I do want uh Dr. Sudler to know that that's currently under legal review. So uh if it checks out with legal review, um I have no problem with it being a friendly amendment and incorporating it in. If it uh If there is uh a glitch to part of it, we should then we'll have that conversation. I Uh unless Chief Johnson has something to add, I I yield back, Mr. President.

Fred A. Neil

Not seeing any, we will go into

Fred A. Neil

Ordinance 2025-20, amending Chapter 106, Traffic and Vehicles, Article I, In General, by adding Section 106-18, Strictly Enforced. This constitutes the first reading. The final reading will take place on November 24th, 2025.

City Clerk

That's good for me. Thank you.

Fred A. Neil

Okay. And with that, we have City Manager's announcements.

David S. Hugg, III

I don't really have any announcements tonight, just want to encourage everybody to honor our veterans. My father was a much decorated army infantry officer, and he felt very strongly about his country. So just want to remind everybody to take a few minutes tomorrow to remember our veterans. That's it for tonight.

Fred A. Neil

Thank you. Mr. Mayor.

Robin R. Christiansen

Thank you, Mr. President. I would piggyback on the City Manager's remarks about tomorrow, remember, well every day, remember the people that have served in our military that gave us the opportunity to do exactly what we did tonight: is dialogue and speak our piece. And we are the greatest nation on the face of the Earth, if not the history of the world. And we are the only nation that offers that ability uninhibited. And, oh, my last comment is, today is the 250th anniversary of the United States Marine Corps. Semper Fi. Oorah!

Andre M. Boggerty

first say happy Veterans Day to those who proudly served, and in every aspect of the way. Also to the fellow furloughed federal government employees, we endured it, so those who endured this time, it looks like it's almost over. We haven't been paid since October, but we remain strong.

Andre M. Boggerty

Two- Three, I want to say that, Councilman Boggerty, The WELL Church, under my leadership, and the leadership of my wife, along with Dream Big LLC, we will be providing free breakfast on Thanksgiving Day. It's to go. The location would be at 300 Lockerman, the, under construction, home of The WELL Life Center. Again, it's to go. So anybody who's, on Thanksgiving Day, from 8:00 to 10:00, we will be providing to-go breakfasts at The WELL Life Center at 300 Lockerman. So if you know somebody who needs at least a breakfast meal, please send them to 300 Lockerman. Again, it's to go. We're not allowed inside the building just yet, so I'll announce it again, and y'all have a great night. Thank you.

Fred A. Neil

Council members' announcements. Councilman Boggerty.

Andre M. Boggerty

Thank you. A couple things, as this has been already...

David L. Anderson

Probation Office uh which is at 511 North Parkway in Dover, and November 15th at the Blue Hen Conference Center on Bay Road. Uh and that will be at 10:00 a.m. Uh and and of course uh you can go to the

Fred A. Neil

Councilman Anderson.

David L. Anderson

Thank you, Mr. President. Of course, Happy Veterans Day to all who served. And I'd like to point out that there's people who may need, the couple, which anybody can. Food bank, you know, the mobile food bank will be in Dover on November 14th at 9:00 a.m. at the Dover

David L. Anderson

uh uh you can go and check that out online as well. Uh the truck travels to the communities to serve families directly near their home, is filled with non-perishables, fresh produce, dairy, beverages, and other refrigerated food items as well as personal products when available. Simply bring proof of Delaware residency, you register on site, you don't have to pre-register, and they will fill your car if you have one, or you can take one, pick stuff up.

David L. Anderson

Uh proof of Delaware residency can include a lot of things including valid driver's license, state ID, a bill with your name and address etc. So um um that is um uh November 14th and 15th. Thank you, Mr. President.

Brian E. Lewis

...in the cold, um, standing on the medians and walking the streets, let's not forget them. And also the, uh, servicemen overseas. That's all I have.

Fred A. Neil

Thank you. And Councilman Lewis. Councilman Lewis.

Julia M. Pillsbury

Mr. President, can I also... I have something.

Brian E. Lewis

Uh yes, I'd like to announce uh tomorrow at 2:00 p.m. on South Little Creek Road there will be a ceremony at the Vietnam Memorial Veterans uh monument. Uh so that will be 2:00 p.m. tomorrow uh location: South Little Creek Road. And uh let us not forget uh we heard it tonight the uh homeless veterans that are out there

Fred A. Neil

Dr. Sudler.

Roy Sudler, Jr.

Thank you, Council President Neil. Um, an announcement. Um, the Mount Zion AME Church at 101 North Queen Street will be celebrating the completion of its newly constructed addition to the church with a rededication service on Sunday, November 23rd, 2025, in addition to celebrating the election of its former pastor, Reverend Erika Crawford, who was elected and consecrated as the 143rd bishop of the African Methodist Episcopal Church on Saturday, November 22nd, 2025. Detailed information and has been emailed to the mayor and to all of Dover's city council members. Also, the Mayor's Blue Ribbon Opioid Task Force will be having a committee meeting, committee will be uh having another meeting on Monday, the 17th of this month, and we will be discussing the grant process. We'll have Mr. Brad uh Brad Mr. Brad Owens will be discussing the um the application process for being awarded the opioid money, in addition to Ms. uh not Ms., but Dr. uh Bookhart from Delaware State University, who will be giving out some tips in regards to grant writing for that application. Uh and the last item we'll have on that meeting will be in regards to reaching out peer-to-peer staff and...

Roy Sudler, Jr.

and the task force uh hopefully in conjunction with the uh Dover uh Police Department's uh behavioral unit uh to see what we can do in regards to ushering those individuals off the median into uh some resources um for them. And so uh that's all. I yield at this moment. Thank you for allowing me to to speak, and also um thanks to all of the veterans that's in this room and those who serve on the City Council and who also are um you know spouses of veterans. My grandfather was a Tuskegee Airman, uh photographic intelligence, and I have uncles Marines. Everyone served uh except my father and I. We had injury and and I just I just didn't want to go that way, but I appreciate, and I kind of hold I appreciate, you know, I really do. I appreciate, and then I have much respect for those who've gone that way. Thank you very much. I yield.

Fred A. Neil

Mr. Mayor.

Robin R. Christiansen

Thank you, Mr. President. To piggyback on uh Councilman Lewis's announcement, the venue has been changed for that uh veterans ceremony sponsored by Chapter 850 of the Vietnam Veterans uh organization in Delaware. It'll be inside in Levy Court chambers due to the cold weather. So, thank you, Mr. President.

Fred A. Neil

Nothing. Hearing nothing, no other announcements, this meeting is adjourned.

Fred A. Neil

Councilman Sudler.

Roy Sudler, Jr.

Thank you. One last thing. Um I just wanted to say um people know I'm very passionate about um what I'm doing and serving, and I also want to apologize to the Council President if I seemed to be a little abrupt earlier um in a in a moment of compassion for the people. So, I want to provide you with my heartfelt apology if I came off a little--

Female Speaker

You didn't need to paint the picture.

Female Speaker

You too, sir.

Male Speaker

Thank you, Mr. President. Thank you, sir.

Fred A. Neil

I have rhino skin.

Roy Sudler, Jr.

Okay, good. I thought you did. Thank you.

Fred A. Neil

Not a problem.