Transcript: Code Board of Appeals Meeting

Robin R. Christiansen

I call to order the City of Dover, Delaware, Code, uh, Board of Appeals, Thursday, uh, January 15, 2026, at approximately 3:45 p.m.

Robin R. Christiansen

Um, you have before you uh, the agenda, uh, we'll welcome a uh, a motion to adopt the agenda.

Julia M. Pillsbury

Pillsbury moves to adopt the agenda of the um, Committee of Appeals.

Speaker (unknown f)

I second.

Robin R. Christiansen

And, uh, Mr. Rocha uh, has seconded the motion. Um, any discussion?

Robin R. Christiansen

All in favor, please say aye.

Multiple Speakers

Aye.

Robin R. Christiansen

Ayes have it. Uh, the first uh, order of business is the election of the chair, and I nominate, uh, Dr. Sudler to serve as chairman of this committee.

Roy Sudler, Jr.

I accept.

Robin R. Christiansen

Do I need a second? I don't need a second.

Julia M. Pillsbury

I second that motion.

Roy Sudler, Jr.

Thank you.

Robin R. Christiansen

Okay. All in favor, please say aye.

Multiple Speakers

Aye.

Robin R. Christiansen

Hear it? Dr. Sudler.

Roy Sudler, Jr.

Thank you, Council President, for recognizing me and thank you, um, for your leadership. Um, at this present moment, we have before us item number two, Dover Code Ordinance Violation Chapter 106, Traffic and Vehicles, Article 3, Stopping, Standing, and Parking Division 1, Section 106-130, Wrecked, Non-operating, Non-operating, Improperly Parked or, Improperly Parked or Equipped Vehicles. Appeal of violation, 276 Greenblade Drive, Bernice Capone. It's been brought to our understanding for the record, I'll refer to the city clerk in regards to a phone conversation that we received from Ms. Capone with the city clerk. Could you just elaborate?

City Clerk

Yes. Uh, behind you,

Roy Sudler, Jr.

time communicated and what the details of the conversation consisted of.

Crystal Wheeler

Okay. So, um I contacted Ms. Capone uh last Thursday on January 7th and um let her know that we were having uh a Code Board of Appeals meeting on January 15th. I also sent her an email as a reminder, and I also sent her a letter in the mail as well.

Roy Sudler, Jr.

Thank you. And this Ms. Crystal Wheeler?

Crystal Wheeler

Yes.

Roy Sudler, Jr.

The acting clerk. Thank you for all your hard work. Um at this present moment, I do believe she has expressed that she's that Ms. Capone is unable to attend or was not aware at the the time today. And so we have before us what is the pleasure of uh the Code Board of Appeals Committee? Is there What is the pleasure? The chair recognizes Council President Neil. Council President Neil, you've been recognized.

Fred A. Neil

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Uh I believe we ought to hear from the code inspectors about what this was about, because the uh information that was sent to get provided in the packet shows that it was actually closed in uh 2023, on May 10th, as being in compliance, and then it was reopened uh by Mr. England on February 20th, 2024, when you see he noticed the same violation of the gates and sent up a new violation letter. So there is a history here. And in this uh notice, um uh Mr. England noticed on March 20th, 2024, spoke to Ms. Capone and gave her a 30-day extension. A second notice and a citation was sent on April 21st, 2024, and again, another extension has been provided. So I think we have to know something of the history of it because there has

Fred A. Neil

...been conversation back and forth. And I would like to have a presentation by Mr. Kopp and Mr. Enright in terms of the circumstances of why this was reopened and brought to our attention again.

Roy Sudler, Jr.

Councilman Neil, was that in the form of a motion, or...

Fred A. Neil

That that's a motion.

Roy Sudler, Jr.

Okay.

Julia M. Pillsbury

Pillsbury seconds it.

Roy Sudler, Jr.

It's been properly moved by Council President Neil that we hear from code enforcement in regards to the matter at hand. It's been properly seconded by Dr. Pillsbury. Is there any discussion on the motion?

Donyale M. Hall

I mean, I have a question on the motion. Um...

Roy Sudler, Jr.

Discussion?

Donyale M. Hall

Yes.

Roy Sudler, Jr.

Floor's open.

Donyale M. Hall

Um, on Well, as I was reading the the packet, I noticed the last time of communication um with the picture setup and the date timed on the pictures, after being um the the case being reopened again, she did comply by putting the vehicle on a uh a driveway, which, in uh I I don't have the uh packet with me, but um in one of our ordinances, it says that in order to accommodate, it would have to be a city-approved driveway or parking area or parking lot. And in the last group of pictures, I believe it was in either March or April, I'm not sure exactly, um she did comply with putting it, like I said, on the driveway behind her house, which on that street specifically, there is parking on the street, there's parking everywhere else. But she did come into compliance after so many violations and and code enforcement that she actually covered the vehicle. And what I did notice...

Ms. Mangum

was, yes, I'm not sure if the other vehicle that was in the picture was part of being in the violation because, yes, it was parked on the grass, but yet some of it was also parked on the proven driveway in the back of the property.

Roy Sudler, Jr.

So, excuse not mean to interrupt. So, um, typically with discussion is discussion in regards to the scope of the motion, um, for our vote. And what we'll do is we're going to pause there, and what we'll do is we'll just take the vote, if it's okay with you, and then we'll then we'll, I'll recognize you and then we can continue, and then we'll be able to, um, speak. Okay? Are you okay with that?

Ms. Mangum

Absolutely.

Roy Sudler, Jr.

Okay. Um, it's been properly moved, properly seconded. All those in favor, please state by saying aye.

Board Members

Aye.

Roy Sudler, Jr.

Those opposed, please state by saying no. It has been properly adopted. Motion carries. Um, Ms. Mangum, the chair recognizes you to continue the discussion and ask your question, uh, to Code Enforcement and then also to open the, um, the discussion open for, as Council President Neil stated earlier, to hear the parameters around the case.

Ms. Mangum

Okay. Um, as what I had just stated, in the um, not sure if the, uh, minute clerk could go to the last pictures before right here, stop right there.

Audience Member

approved by the city obviously, cuz it's behind the fenced area, and she also went a little step further on it and covered it over so that it doesn't look like a major eyesore or a piece of trash. So, is the same violations in the beginning when it was on the grass still being applied to now it being on the driveway in compliance?

Minute Clerk

Oops, sorry.

Ms. Mangum

On this date here, it was April of '25. The vehicle that is under there was the vehicle that was on a rocked area in the backyard on the first pictures, I believe what the what that was the first violation, am I correct?

Eddie Kopp

If I could clarify something, um--

Code Enforcement Officer

Correct.

Ms. Mangum

Okay. And and this picture in 2025, she moved the vehicle from where it was illegal to have it in the city to where it is compliant to being on a driveway that is

Chair

Chair recognizes Eddie Kopp, uh, Chief of Code Enforcement.

Eddie Kopp

Um, Eddie Kopp, Chief Code Enforcement Officer, uh, with the City of Dover. Um, just to clarify, even though that vehicle is under a tarp, it is still by definition, by the code, it is still a wrecked, non-operating or improperly equipped vehicle. So even though it's under a tarp, it still isn't violation of the code, by definition. Um, and then just to clarify for that vehicle, I know two tires are on the concrete, they're still two tires in the grass. The code doesn't dictate how many tires are on the grass. So, by our interpretation of code, it's still in violation. Um, just to clarify our, uh, what we see when we're enforcing the codes as written.

City Staff

Code Enforcement Officer Michael Bailey opened up 23-0206. Uh, his violation was, um, DCO Section 106.13, uh, 130, um, Section C, parking in the grass, vehicles shall not be park uh, permitted to be parked in front, side, rear yards, uh, required by Appendix B pertaining to zoning, except in approved driveways, garages, carports, or parking. Um, at the time, uh, Code Enforcement Officer Bailey wrote that she had to remove the vehicle from the grass, park only on an approved parking surface. If the vehicle is non-operating or unregistered, it needs to be removed from the property. He sent out a second notice February 13, 2023, and for whatever reason the case was closed as compliance made, um, on May 10th of 2023. Uh, February 20th, 2025, I observed the vehicle parked in the rear yard again. Um, this was my first experience with this vehicle. Um, when I came back to the office, I realized there was a previous case. Um, I opened up my case, 25-1137, sent a notice on February 20th, 2025. At that time, I cited I cited two violations. Number one, DCO Section 106-130, uh, letter C, parking in the grass, which is the same code that, uh, Code Enforcement Bailey wrote. Um, and then I also wrote, uh, a second violation, DCO Section 106-130 for wrecked, non-operating, or improperly parked vehicles, uh, on the property. Um, March 20th, 2025, I spoke to Mrs. Capone

City Staff

And she told me at the time that the the insurance company finally paid her uh finally totaled her vehicle and paid her for it. And um so I asked her what she was going to do. Her intent was to restore the vehicle in honor of her deceased husband who had passed away that year, I guess. So, at that time, I gave her a 30-day extension um to, number one, move the vehicle off the grass, and number two, if it's still uh inoperable, to remove the vehicle from the property. We talked about getting it towed off the property. Um, I followed up uh 30 days later, so uh April 21st, 2025, the vehicle was still there in the same location. Uh, a second notice uh and a $100 citation sent out certified mail. Now, mind you that the pictures that I took on February 20 20th, 2025, were identical to the pictures that Code Enforcement Officer Mike Bailey took in '23. So, I don't know why it was closed, but that's another that's another problem. Um, on April 22nd, Ms. Capone called me asking for another 30 days extension. I explained to her that this case goes back to '23, that I had already given her a 30-day extension, and um I advised her that she could request an appeal within 30 days to the city clerk's office. Uh, April 30th, 2025, um Ms. Capone called back to say that the vehicle was now moved off the grass. Um, I told her that I appreciated the effort, um however, that there was two violations that I sent out to her and that the vehicle still had to be removed from the property because it was unregistered in in a state of disrepair. Um, at that time, I gave her an additional 60 days uh to remove the vehicle from the property. Um, July 31st, 2025, my inspection showed the vehicle was still there,

Code Enforcement Officer

uh, I noted in the case that I was going to hold off on any further citations due to the appeal being submitted and waiting for this support, uh the appeal board here. Um, pretty much every month since then, uh including a couple days ago, the vehicle is still in the same location, in the driveway, disrepair. Um, and then there's also the second vehicle that's partially in the grass that I didn't write up, but she moved it in the grass in order to bring the first car onto the driveway. And, and so there's just not enough room for two cars. And so we have actually another violation that I haven't, you know, reviewed. Um, and so that's the history of the case.

City Staff

If I can real quick. Um, just for the record, uh, Michael Bailey is no longer employed with the City of Dover, so we were unable to confirm if that case was in compliance when he closed it. Um, so he's not available for for that question or comment. But it's our belief that the case was not in compliance back in 2023 when it was closed, based off the evidence that's that's been provided uh on the record. So, thank you.

Chairman

Any questions from the committee? Miss Maine, you've been recognized, followed by a couple of others.

Unknown Speaker

...can touch.

Unknown Speaker

Go with Council President Neil.

Fred A. Neil

Yeah, I think I yelled. The biggest problem that you look at, if you take the human factor and you say, you understand this, look at the neighbors. I don't know how many neighbors have complained, but if you let that happen and you let a lot of people do the same thing, then all of a sudden, in this area, you have of junk cars. Because you can't move a junk car. And now the entire neighborhood, the value goes down for those people who really can't do anything about this. And that's why the law is is in place is to make sure that you're looking after their interests in terms as well as the person who's there. And one thing about our code inspectors, and I've seen this ever since I was elected in 2015 along with Dr. Sudler before he was a doctor, but anyhow, is that they really care about what's happening. They're not doing it they work and they will actually work with the person to resolve the problem before it gets to the appeal. And I've sat into other appeals where they've actually made suggestions where we were able to not have to take any action because of the suggestions they made. They care about the city and they care about the people. And I think here it's a problem, and that problem that the city, that the people in this city are concerned about: why would you let this happen? How many times would you have it through the neighborhood that suddenly you have these cars that are inoperable, that have wrecked or or or pushed off to the side,

Maine

Um, I do have one question. Um, did you go back after and ask after this has been done and it's been like this for months? Did she give you any update of whether she was going to repair it or whether she needed some detail on how to remove the vehicle?

Code Enforcement Officer

Well, I I don't even know how she moved the vehicle to the spot. I I'm thinking she had a tow truck come in and yank it, or another vehicle. Um, but uh when I spoke to her, her intention was to repair it, and it's it as you can see by the pictures, it hasn't cut it hasn't

Board Member

That's why the law is there is to give them the protection for somebody who at this particular point has been given chances, opportunities,

Speaker

It's been paid for. The whole thing's been paid for, for whatever.

Board Member

Well, and, and will it ever happen? And we don't know that. So that's why this is in effect and, and why they do it. And they lean over backwards to give the person a chance to resolve it before it gets to this particular point. I yield.

Chair

Thank you. Any other committee members?

Steve Ribeiro

I, I just want to say--

Chair

Steve Ribeiro.

Steve Ribeiro

I'm sorry, excuse me, I'm sorry.

Chair

Uh, name for the record.

Steve Ribeiro

Steve Ribeiro.

Chair

Okay.

Steve Ribeiro

Yeah. I, I'm just astounded how, how patient you've, to be, to be very candid. And this is, this has been percolating over 2 1/2 years. It's a long time. And I guess what I'm, what I would like to, and try to ascertain, I know the other gentleman is no longer with the city, but has there been really dialogue to find out what's preventing them from actually getting the car moved or fixed? Have you taken the time just to ask her, or is that something you really don't try to get involved in?

City Staff

Yeah, I mean she's given, she's been given the opportunity. Um, she told me her side of the story, so therefore, it's in her hands. Um, I mean, I, I could have been citing her all along.

Council Member

what is preventing her from being compliant?

City Staff

Thank Thank you, Junior. Yes, Chairman

Steve Ribeiro

I, this does exhibit patience, and it's someone's patience, but--

Council Member 2

Thank you. Thank you.

City Staff

I, I think, I, it's just my opinion, I think because of the death of her husband, she might be overwhelmed, um, and--

Council Member 2

Does she drive the other vehicle?

City Staff 2

That other vehicle hasn't moved as long as it's been there.

Council Member 2

Okay.

Steve Ribeiro

Well, that would be the reason.

City Staff 2

So I In my opinion, I can't tell you 100%, I believe that vehicle's probably disabled, not registered either.

City Staff

Yeah, I don't, I don't know. I'm, I'm speaking from my own opinion, but, um, I can only go by what the ordinance is and, and therefore follow the ordinance, uh, along the way. So, um--

Council Member 2

Okay. Um is do we have any idea how long ago her husband died?

City Staff 2

Uh she said in '23, which is the which this time the time of the case was opened initially.

Steve Ribeiro

I mean, what would you, I mean, I, I'm amenable to having her come one last opportunity if the, if the chair, if he feels it's prudent.

Council Member 2

Okay.

City Staff 2

Uh and then, what she had told me is she wanted to the insurance company paid Right. totaled the vehicle, paid her off, and so her claim was she wanted to restore it in honor of husband.

Council Member 2

And did she give you any idea what her plan is after she restores it if she's not driving?

City Staff 2

I I didn't go in details with her on that.

Council Member 2

I I have great empathy, but um I think she's taking advantage of the city and of the requirements, and

Council Member 2

so what is the next step? Does the city tow it? Do you take possession of it?

City Staff 2

That's more citations until she's in compliance.

Council Member 2

But what if she's never in compliance? She hasn't been in compliance in 3 years.

City Staff

According to the current state law, we do not have the ability to tow the vehicle. Okay. Um our only option is for citation. Um so it would be up to her to remove the vehicle.

Council Member 2

So realistically, there's nothing we can do, I mean, other than continue to fine her.

City Staff

Correct.

Council Member 2

And did she ever pay the $100 fine? No, so

Julia M. Pillsbury

So, I mean, it seems to me you have your hands tied. And especially if both vehicles are registered. Does the... do you... are you the only ones that ticket cars that are parked like that or does the city police department ticket them also?

Code Enforcement Officer

If it's on private property, it would be the responsibility of Code Enforcement to address.

Julia M. Pillsbury

Okay. So it would only be if she had left them on the street that it would be the City of Dover...

Code Enforcement Officer

Correct.

Julia M. Pillsbury

...police department. Okay. Does the city... does the... Just out of curiosity, does the police department have more authority than you do?

Code Enforcement Officer

Not on private property.

Julia M. Pillsbury

No, but I mean on... if they... if she had left the car on the city street.

Code Enforcement Officer

Yes, they could.

Julia M. Pillsbury

They could tow it, but you can't because it's on her property.

Code Enforcement Officer

The way the law is written.

Julia M. Pillsbury

Right. I just wanted to be sure I was understanding it correctly.

Council Member

Now the way the law is written, the city police could tow it?

Julia M. Pillsbury

From her property?

Code Enforcement Officer

Not on her property.

Julia M. Pillsbury

I think I would like to make a motion that we send her a letter, letting her, with a fine, and letting her know that if she doesn't respond, we're going to contact the City of Dover Police to have the cars towed.

Council Member

I second.

Roy Sudler, Jr.

Okay. It has been properly moved by Dr. Pillsbury that we send Ms. Capone a letter stating that we're going to have the Capitol Police or the City of Dover Police to remove the vehicle from her private property, uh, along with providing additional fine. That we are... we're going to fine her, right?

Julia M. Pillsbury

Right.

Roy Sudler, Jr.

So we're going to... okay, give her 30 days... we're going to... go ahead. I'm sorry, go.

Julia M. Pillsbury

30 days to get the problem resolved, or we're going to turn it over...

Julia M. Pillsbury

Dover City Police to have the cars towed. Yes.

City Staff

Just Just for clarification for your motion, you did mention timing. Um the next fine, the only fine that's been issued in this case in over a year is $100. The next step fine would be $200. I just want to make sure that you want to go to the next step, which would be in accordance with code.

Julia M. Pillsbury

Well, my question, that's why I asked if she ever paid the $100, is can we go to the next step or are we stuck at the $100?

City Staff

Well, traditionally, we would go to the next step, which would be, okay, thank you, because this is the second citation, okay. I just want to make sure that's amicable to the board.

Roy Sudler, Jr.

Okay. So it's been so to my understanding, the other motion, it's been properly moved by Dr. Pillsbury that we send a 30-day notice uh to have the car removed or repaired, or else the City of Dover Police Department will remove the vehicle per code, a lot per code, and we will also be sending a $200 um with a with a 30 days notice to be paid by the 30 days as well.

City Staff

Just so we get the record right, um Dover Police Department is the Delaware, okay, so per Delaware, Delaware traffic manual, yeah, per Delaware criminal traffic manual. Yeah, it's under the the Delaware code under the law. I can't remember what section right now, I'm doing some research on that now, but it's not I just want to make it clear, it's not the City of Dover code, it's um Delaware State law that

Roy Sudler, Jr.

Okay, so Delaware Delaware criminal traffic manual.

City Staff

Or you could just do Delaware, Delaware code.

City Staff

Yep.

Male Board Member

Now, just just for clarification, if she was to come into compliance, that would mute Just want to make sure we're aware, if she comes into compliance, that would mute the enforcement action. Correct?

City Staff

Right. Absolutely.

Female Board Member

Right.

Male Chair

Is there is there a second to the motion? Oh, that's already been moved and seconded. That was discussion. Further discussion, Council?

Female Board Member

What is the cost of the tow? What's the cost of the tow?

City Staff

It they um

Female Board Member

What will happen with the with the vehicle?

City Staff

So, the towing company would take possession of the vehicle. They do not charge the city for towing fees.

Female Board Member

They actually, I mean, I'm sorry, I didn't mean to interrupt.

City Staff

No. No, you're fine.

Female Board Member

They're they will um tow a vehicle. There are companies that will pay you to tow your car if you can't drive it.

City Staff

Right. There

Female Board Member

So there are lots of options.

City Staff

There are companies out there. I know one, but unfortunately we can't recommend them because that would promote services. But there are companies out there that will pay you for Right. a abandoned vehicle.

Female Board Member

And they'll tow the car.

City Staff

Yeah. Um but if we were to have it towed, there is no charge to the city.

Female Board Member

Okay. I yield.

Male Chair

Ms. Manning, would you like to?

Helena Manning

Um Helena Manning. Um I do have what what's not computing in my brain right now is what the gentleman over there had brought up is what is her reasoning for not complying? Cuz a a letter to me if somethings like say a vehicle is sentimental to me and it got smashed up, my husband died, which hopefully he's home right now, but the if it's got a sentimental type value to it, I mean it still needs to be repaired or you know, towed. But what is keeping it from being towed or from being repaired? Because as we had known before the recording that this sounds like a

Board Member 1

an elderly lady, and she obviously can't make it to a meeting, so is there something physical that she can't, you know, compute that, okay, it needs to be repaired, or that, you know, she doesn't know who to contact to get this vehicle repaired, or is it just that she is a stubborn child and doesn't want to get it repaired because she doesn't want to do it? And, you know, I'd like to know the the idea of, you know, why, the reasoning for it, and then take the steps of, okay, well, now we know where you're coming from, and now this is the result of of what you're coming from is a letter, a fine, and now we're towing it because, you know, sentimental value only goes so far if you're not going to do anything about it.

Board Member 2

If I could, just a Just to comment, um the code doesn't grant us the ability to give that exemption. Um and um just in closing remarks, John has gone above and beyond with granting leniency with this case. Um technically citations should have started um a month after, so they should have started March 2025. Uh first citation would have been $100, second 200, third 300, fourth 500, and then every citation after that 1,000, which would take place every month. So I think um John has been very lenient with this, uh with this case, beyond leniency, um within the limits of the code, he's gone beyond the limits of the code. Um the code does not grant an exemption or compassion, unfortunately, in this case. And we have to look at what the code states. Did we interpret the code correctly? That's the whole intent of this board um because this board sets precedents for future cases. So I just want to keep that in every in the back of everyone's mind. What we do today could dictate further cases, and

Chief Code Enforcement Officer

this case could be quoted. Um, so just keep that in mind as we're going through here, but the it's my belief as the Chief Code Enforcement Officer in the City of Dover that this code was interpreted correctly, and with the lack of exemption, I would feel and it's on behalf the Code Enforcement that we move we request that this appeal be denied based on the facts and the evidence presented at today's board.

Chair

Did you Um, yeah, okay, yeah. Um, Ms. Maine?

Ms. Maine

Um, I I my angle for that wasn't necessarily compassion. It was more or less like if you committed a crime, and you had to explain why you committed the crime, and you didn't show up because of of not a way to get there or anything else, and you weren't able to give your reasoning for why you did what you did, it's not compassion, it's more or less explanation

Chief Code Enforcement Officer

Mm-hm.

Ms. Maine

than compassion, because, like I said, you know, if I were if I were Code Enforcement, it would have been removed and that's it, you're fined, bye-bye. But it it's more or less, what is keeping you from following the code? Do you not know the code? Do you have you not, you know, like what is what is the the reasoning for this? Not, you know, "Oh, let's cradle you and"

Julia M. Pillsbury

Certainly, and we're giving her 30 days to notify us and let us know if there is an issue or to take action. If we need to modify the letter to state that she can call us and appeal it again or whatever, we can do that, but I feel that she's been given adequate opportunity, and I'm not -- believe me, I'm a pediatrician and I have a heart of gold. I'm not trying to be mean or penalize, but this has gone on for three years, and I think she's taken advantage of everybody's sympathies, and they have been more than accommodating to her. And I think now we need to put down some firm discipline, okay? Because she's just taking advantage, I feel. And so that's my rationale for the recommendation.

Chair

Right.

Ms. Maine

you know, give caring, but in support of you guys for giving the opportunity, but where is is it not computing in her head that, okay, it needs to be removed? It needs to be towed? It it, you know, do do we need to word it in a way that's, you know, more be of, okay, you violated it, now it's bye-bye vehicle. I yield.

Chair

Chair recognizes um Dr. Pillsbury, and then we'll follow by—

Julia M. Pillsbury

I think she's already gotten several letters, so she's already been notified. We can't—

Andre M. Boggerty

Thank you. If we have dialogue, um, if I could -- I'm recognized -- if, if I could just to clarify, because I know Madam Clerk, um, stated that she made three attempts to contact. She said she called her. Did you actually speak to her when you called her?

City Clerk

Yes, I did.

Andre M. Boggerty

So you did and you...

City Clerk

Yes, I did speak to her, yes.

Andre M. Boggerty

Okay. So, she was aware of the appeal today, um, and she filed for the appeal herself. She was aware of the appeal, she had three contacts, and she did not attempt to make any contact until you contacted her, correctly? So you contacted her after the meeting had already started at 3:30, so she was aware of the meeting and did not attempt to make contact. I think that should be taken into consideration as well.

Fred A. Neil

All right. Yes, uh, thank you, Mr. Chairman. Um, compliance makes this whole thing very simple. Compliance makes it disappear. If she takes action, knowing that it's there, she gets a letter and disappears. But if she doesn't, then no clue...

Board Member 1

Thanks a lot. Because of the timeline and the after fact, the code inspectors hope to help you.

Board Member 2

I do have one more statement, though.

Board Member 1

Yes, ma'am.

Board Member 2

Um, but the reason why she appealed is cuz this committee wasn't fully able to actually take any appeals cuz it was missing a couple members. So, in in in in a matter of speaking, yes, it happened in 2023, but we just got everything done this year -- oh, actually the end of last year, beginning of this year. I mean, I like I said, I I I am all for the letter being written and everything else, but just it is, you know, still, like what is that what is that that's killing me? And I studied psychology. I'm a major in psychology. That's where I'm coming with all this stuff is I see things in different angles and and I'm pretty much just trying to get down to the bottom of, okay, yes, you've had this time, yes, we finally got what we need in order to say, okay, we're not putting up with it anymore, this is this is it. Here's your letter, here's this. But then I still would like to know if like I would still like her hopefully to contact the board and be like this is the reason why.

Board Member

um possibly. And, and three,

Board Member

I think that we do have like a Do we have a If I put my phone to

Board Member 3

We can modify it. I can -- I'm I'm sorry.

Board Member 1

Wait just one minute.

Board Member 4

Um, if you mind if I just interject for a minute. I think I hear all the concerns, and I and I think it's very valid, thing's very valid. Um, what I'm seeing and hearing: one, we have someone who's disabled. So then, what's the special accommodations for those who are disabled? That's my brainstorming, okay? In this case, how would it how does it impact? Two, is there anyone else that's living there with her? You know, son, grandson, you know, um, I believe it's probably most likely so. At least someone else that's an adult, you know.

Board Member

Madam Clerk, if I put my phone to a mechanism, uh do we have like a a a

Board Member

a microphone or something if I call her If I call her right now, uh I think my phone's loud enough, but if I call right now so to pick up pick it up on for the record.

Board Member

Could you give me her number and I can just call her and just ask that question, um just to try and satisfy this question about does she has one there, why wouldn't she able to to move it,

Board Member

and if we, you know, how are you how are you going to move forward, you know, and then I think that may help to at least, you know, bring some concerns down and we can still move forward

Board Member

with where we are. I think that'd be a happy medium. You know you'll be happy, you'll also get that answered as well, and then we can still move forward with what the emotion is being that we're still in discussion of. So, would you that's the phone number?

City Staff

I mean that's an aerial photo for them.

Board Member

Okay. Thank you. Thank you, Council.

Board Member

Okay, thank you, Council.

Board Member

Thank you, sir.

City Staff

And you you all brought a good point, so one of things I want to say, like you said someone else lived with her. So,

City Staff

um I I know where you're coming from with that, but unfortunately for us we can only deal with the property owner unless they grant excessive right for us to talk to someone else. We get that a lot is

City Staff

we'll deal with a property, the tenant will call us, "Oh hey, this is what it is." Well, unfortunately we can't discuss it with the tenant. We have to discuss with with the property owner. Um

Board Member

What about family members, like if it's her her son?

City Staff

It would be it would still have to be the property owner. If she express that permission for us to then communicate, we have no problem doing so, but we it has to come from her.

Board Member

Yeah. And and I'm thinking that just to try and help her.

Roy Sudler, Jr.

Yeah, see if she has someone helping her understand the scope of what's going on, yeah, because sometimes the older individuals, as you know, they have some of their cognitive faculties have diminished, you know. And so we don't know how far and how less, you know, does she really understand. So I figure give her a call and still move forward.

City Staff

I know usually with these cases we tell them the services that are out there without saying a specific A, B, and C will come get your car. Hey, there are people out there that will come get your car. You can look them up on Google, so on and so forth. That's what I've done in the past. I don't know if you want to explain that to her, John, but but that's something we do recommend to people. Just like if your house was falling down, we'll tell you the resources. Hey, I can say this, Milford Housing or NCALL, because those are non-profits who work directly with the community, so we can name them because they're non-profits. Whereas a tow truck company, they're more for-profit, so we can't recommend them.

Roy Sudler, Jr.

Do you think that— thank you for sharing that. Do you think that you could calculate what the the amount would have been right now today if you had not have been as lenient as you all were, which we which you know I'm sure they appreciate, just so we can mention, hey, you know, we have we have, you know, it should have been $4,000, and I think that will also help her to understand that yes, we've been, so that when we take action, they'll see that we've already been as lenient, you know, as far as financially and technically, as this action is really minimal compared to what—

Board Member 1

and then I found this petition, so she just said I'm appealing. You know what I'm trying to say, so.

Board Member 1

So, for instance, like I got something, I just appealed my gas bill, so I was able to get very details why I'm appealing.

Chairman

And I'm going to ask her a few questions to start it off and if any other questions you might want to write it down right now just--

Board Member 1

The only question I have is, Rick, if you don't mind, if you'd represent, is--

Board Member 1

is I would like to know if you can, you know, this code have been so patient. Why there's been no up until today? That's what I want to know. That's the only question I really have.

Board Member

You're right on that. That's why I was confused on her response. This is her response, so I have this as—

Roy Sudler, Jr.

And take and take your time.

Board Member

I was hoping for some substance. That's why when I said, all right, she said page two of two, one of two—

Board Member 1

It doesn't take 3 years so far. Maybe this is sent about value, I agree, but why?

City Staff

Once she put in the appeal, I backed off of any enforcement. So I haven't reached out to her since she put the appeal in. We haven't cited her or anything like that.

Chairman

And you're not expediting? You have not expedited liens?

City Staff

No.

Female Speaker

Just closer to the speaker, okay? We couldn't find it. Okay.

City Staff

I do have a dollar amount and this is an estimate, just rough math as I'm sitting here, and this is only pertaining to this case, which started February 20th, 2025. The approximate amount would be $8,100, $8,100 in citations

City Staff

from February 20th of 2025. The reason for that is this case was new, so we couldn't, we wouldn't be able to backdate to that other case since that was closed.

Chairman

So, the estimate is 28?

City Staff

Uh 81, 8,100.

Chairman

$8,100?

City Staff

Yes, cuz every month, um, the citation structure is your first citation is $100,

Chairman

I understand.

City Staff

second citation is 200, third is 300, fourth is 500, and $1,000 is every month after.

City Staff

And that's in compliance with the Dover Code of Ordinances under the Property Maintenance Code. And that's why that fee structure is there, which we changed about two years ago, so.

Chairperson

Okay. So, what I'm going to do, I'll make this call. And, okay, let me write down the questions: one, why no results, what's hindering her from moving the vehicle? Um, two, um... Was there... Just the one?

Female Board Member 1

No, that's okay. I think, uh, I'll see if I want to turn.

Female Board Member 2

I don't have any questions, really. She hasn't responded, and I feel that that's, oh, that is that is thirty days.

Female Board Member 1

Um, I'm going to feed off of you and say why hasn't she responded or what was keeping her from responding to...

Chairperson

Responding in regards to move the vehicle or...

Female Board Member 1

And And showing up today. You know, pay the fines, the the getting the explanation, the...

Chairperson

Okay. Mr. Vice President?

Vice President

No question, no. I think basically as soon as she gets takes care of it, it's gone. There's no problem. But if she does, for whatever reason it is, it has to be done. If it isn't done, then it stays there. And And she she takes care of it, it's gone. There's no problem.

Roy Sudler, Jr.

Ms. Capone?

Capone

Hello? I'm not sure who am I speaking to.

Roy Sudler, Jr.

Ms. Capone, how are you today? Can you hear me? Ms. Capone, can you hear me?

Chairperson

Okay. Okay, Jim. Okay, committee. Um, let me get a phone.

Female Board Member 1

Yeah, Mr. Chair, if you just want to move right here so it's closer to the...

Roy Sudler, Jr.

All righty. Let's try this one.

Chairperson

I'm just going to put on I'm just going to put it on speaker and it'll And then and then I'll pass it. As long as we Okay. I should be able to speak loud.

Chairperson

Okay, Miss Capone. Thanks.

Chairperson

Miss Capone? Miss Capone? Miss Capone? Miss Capone?

Roy Sudler, Jr.

Ms. Capone, this is the City of Dover. My name is Dr. Roy Sudler, Jr. I am the chairman of the Codes Appeal hearing today. How are you today?

Capone

Yes, sir.

Roy Sudler, Jr.

So I just want to ask you a few questions. All right, can you hear me?

Capone

Barely. I'm going to have to turn- yeah, I'm just turning the TV down.

Roy Sudler, Jr.

Okay. Turn the TV down, okay? Now, do you- with your vehicle, how do you- what do you plan to do with your vehicle? Are you going to move it?

Capone

Yes.

Roy Sudler, Jr.

When?

Capone

Um, I had tried to get in contact with people here in the Delaware uh region to fix it, but you don't have collision experts that can do it. And I promised my husband before he passed away, we had talked about it and we wanted to have it fixed. We wanted to have it restored.

Roy Sudler, Jr.

Okay. Okay, I understand it. Is the- is the vehicle operational? Can someone drive it somewhere?

Capone

Well, I have a mechanic that I know-

Ms. Capone

car, and he said that, well, if he's given enough time, he could fix it and make it operational and drive it to another location or whatever the case may be. However, I just I haven't known this person that long and I didn't know their, um, capabilities of restoring the car.

Board Member

Okay, I understand that. I understand that. So do you--

Ms. Capone

Yeah, I wouldn't do that right now.

Board Member

Okay, let me ask you another question.

Ms. Capone

Right. But in the past, I I really did think other people took I had checked into other people to

Board Member

Right, I understand, I understand. Do you have someone-- Do you have someone that lives with you? Do you have someone that lives with you? Are you living by yourself or do you have someone that lives with you?

Ms. Capone

Well, unfortunately, not to want to give out that information, but I live alone. I'm by myself.

Board Member

Okay, well I'm sorry to I'm sorry to--

Ms. Capone

Ever since he he passed away, he passed away.

Board Member

Okay. So, unfortunately, I just want to get let you know where we are now. Unfort- Unfortunately, we have to have you to remove the vehicle within 30 days or we're going to have it moved for you. And then, most likely, when it's moved to a storage facility, they're going to charge you at least $175 to $150 per day, which means if you don't have the funds to get it out quickly, then you're going to lose the vehicle, period. Do you un- you understand, you understand that? Ms. Capone? Ms. Capone? Ms. Capone?

Ms. Capone

I- I'm tired. I'm trying to hold on, but these people like you, out of all these tens of thousands of people on the planet, we're being picked on because we're an interracial couple, sir. I understand that part.

Roy Sudler, Jr.

Do you understand that, do you understand that—

Ms. Capone

That we're an interracial couple, right?

Roy Sudler, Jr.

Do you, do you understand, Miss, Miss Capone, that has no bearing on the case.

Ms. Capone

And I don't really know who you are. Are you AI, or—

Roy Sudler, Jr.

No, I'm not AI. I'm, I am chairman, I am chairman, I'm city councilman for the city of Dover, Roy Sudler, Jr. You can If, I don't know if you have access to the internet.

Ms. Capone

Yeah.

Board Member

Do you understand?

Ms. Capone

No, I I don't understand, um, um, as told him that I dream about my husband.

Ms. Capone

How long have you been a city council?

Roy Sudler, Jr.

I've been 10 years, 10 years, and I've been with the city 22 years. Now let me say this to you.

Board Member

Okay.

Ms. Capone

Okay.

Roy Sudler, Jr.

You have been out of compliance since February 20th, 2025.

Ms. Capone

I know. Okay.

Roy Sudler, Jr.

We we have we have saved you over $8,000 that we should have charged you, that we did not charge you for not being in compliance. Do you understand that?

Ms. Capone

Why would a person that's been in—

Roy Sudler, Jr.

It's, it's about the code. If you're not in compliance, it doubles. So we've been very lenient. Yes.

Roy Sudler, Jr.

Your, your bill would have been $8,000 just for one case. You had two cases available. So right now you only owe $100.

Ms. Capone

Why do they have the cases first? They didn't comply. The insurance company. Does that, do do you enforce that? The insurance company.

Roy Sudler, Jr.

We have nothing to do with the insurance company. The only thing we do is make sure you're in compliance.

Ms. Capone

Yeah, but we're in here because they didn't pay off.

Roy Sudler, Jr.

Well, I'm sorry to hear that, but there's—

Ms. Capone

And the fact that he was 100% not at fault.

Roy Sudler, Jr.

I un- I understand that. But that has nothing to do with the case today.

Ms. Capone

And that's why—

Roy Sudler, Jr.

I understand that, ma'am.

Ms. Capone

I lost both of my—

Roy Sudler, Jr.

need you to understand the parameters of what's getting ready to happen. So we're going to give you we're going to send you a 30-day notice, a letter that you need to be in compliance within 30 days. We're also going to send you a $200 fine and you're going to you're going to pay it, hopefully, and or have it removed or you can just have it removed, have the phone have your vehicle removed

Caller

What is the $200 fine for?

Roy Sudler, Jr.

Not being in compliance. You're not in compliance right now. The car has not been removed, nor has it been fixed. You see, you have to get the car removed from from the premises or you have to get it fixed. If you get it removed and if you get it fixed, then you won't be looking at the $200 fine. Yes, ma'am. Yes, ma'am.

Caller

Can you sp- please spell your name for me?

Roy Sudler, Jr.

Roy, R-O-Y, Sudler in German, but Sudler in American, S-U-D-L-E-R. S as in Sam, U as in Union, D as in Dover, L as in LL Cool J

Caller

It's a German, right? You said a German name?

Roy Sudler, Jr.

Yes, Sudler. It's a it's a it's a German name.

Caller

What race are you? Cuz you hate niggers, right? Oh, oh,

Roy Sudler, Jr.

Excuse me? Are you serious right now? Go- Google me and then and then and then ask yourself that question again. Well, I'm going to disregard that for you, okay? Roy, R-O-Y, Sudler, S-U-D-L-E-R, a.k.a. Sudler, Jr., J-R, Roy Sudler, Jr. You can Google me. I'm a city councilman for the City of Dover. I've been with the city 22 years.

Caller

Yeah, councilman, yeah.

Roy Sudler, Jr.

Okay?

Caller

Are you Black or white, or what's

Roy Sudler, Jr.

I'm indigenous. I'm Native American, indigenous, with African bloodline and German bloodline.

City Staff

proud of it, okay? So that's irrelevant. The bottom line is you understand what we're what we're going to do. Hopefully, you'll be in compliance. Um and so, I just want to let you give you a courtesy call uh cuz we're getting ready to um close your case out for now.

Public Commenter

So, where the $200 supposed to be, when you all supposed to suck that out of me?

City Staff

If you're not in compliance, if you're not in compliance within 30 days, you'll have to pay the $200.

Public Commenter

30 days, okay.

City Staff

Yes, if you're not in compliance.

Public Commenter

And and I got Can I tell you something, sir?

City Staff

Yes.

Public Commenter

That Miss Crystal—

City Staff

Miss, ma'am, ma'am, ma'am.

Public Commenter

Miss Crystal, she is an angel. She is an angel. She was very, very, very professional with me, just like you are, sir. I just wanted to give her praise.

City Staff

Okay. We—

Public Commenter

I can't believe and she is like an angel, but she she kept her good, I mean, she tolerated me. And that's all that count.

City Staff

Well, we we Miss Crystal—

Public Commenter

And whether that's her stage name, or whether that's her real name—

City Staff

That's her real name. That's her real name.

Public Commenter

Whatever her name, yeah, um she's she's um truly professional, and I thank her. Please tell her that I thank her.

City Staff

I'm sure she she can hear you now.

Public Commenter

Yeah, because it's hard on an old lady like me, 70-something years old, and I was with my husband.

City Staff

Well, I'm sorry to hear that happened to your husband.

Public Commenter

55 years.

City Staff

I'm I'm sure that's very difficult.

Public Commenter

Yes, 55 years we was together. So, I want to thank you for that.

City Staff

You're welcome.

Public Commenter

And that's the only reason why I was hanging onto that car. But if you say I gotta get rid of it, I don't want these tens of thousands of dollars to pay.

Ms. Capone

I can't afford that.

Roy Sudler, Jr.

We're saying we're saying we're not saying you have to get rid of it. We're saying that you have to

Roy Sudler, Jr.

Excuse me.

Roy Sudler, Jr.

We're saying we're not saying that you have to get rid of it. We're saying that you either have to fix it, or you have to remove it from that location.

Ms. Capone

I can't afford to fix it.

Roy Sudler, Jr.

I understand. Maybe someone will reach out to you, maybe someone will reach out to you in the near future to see if they can help you, okay?

Ms. Capone

I don't want

Roy Sudler, Jr.

I I can't I I'll talk I I will give you a call, I will give you a call later if permissible.

Ms. Capone

Can you call the insurance company and

Roy Sudler, Jr.

There's a there's a list of some people that will do non-profit to help out.

Roy Sudler, Jr.

Okay, well I have to go, Miss Capone, okay? Just keep in mind, you have 30 days. You have 30 days and we look for the letter.

Ms. Capone

I appreciate you, sir.

Roy Sudler, Jr.

You're welcome, ma'am. Okay?

Ms. Capone

Thank you.

Roy Sudler, Jr.

All right, well you have a blessed day, and sorry to hear about your husband, and happy new year to you as well. Okay.

Ms. Capone

Talk to you.

Roy Sudler, Jr.

Okay, thank you. All right, bye-bye.

Ms. Capone

God bless.

Roy Sudler, Jr.

God bless you as well. Thank you. Bye-bye.

Board Member

Doctor, Chairman, um do you need assistance? [laughter]

Board Member

All right, now listen, on a serious note, can we we just, I just want to clarify, on this next letter when you go send, can we make it 30 days from the when the certified mail goes out? It kind of gives her like a four-day from the

Board Member 1

modification

Board Chair

A modification. Can I have a second?

Board Member 2

Friendly call friendly amendment.

Board Member 3

Yes, friendly amendment to just make sure that it's 30 days from the when because it might take her two, three days to get get the letter out. So it'd be 30 days when she actually puts it in certified mail.

Roy Sudler, Jr.

Yes.

Board Member

30 days from

Female Speaker

Receipt.

Board Member

From the date of receipt.

Roy Sudler, Jr.

So typically, so typically, so typically from landlord-tenant perspective, 30 days usually starts the next the first of the the first day of the next month. in the landlord-tenant world.

Board Chair

Okay. Yeah.

Board Member 4

If if I could, just along lines of her motion, um, good faith effort from the city, if the vehicle is removed within 30 days, we would remove the $200 citation. I know the motion states to send the citation, but just to show a good faith effort, uh, cuz at the end of the day, we want compliance. Right. Right, so if we get compliance, this is resolved. So, um, I think that would be fair if that's amenable to the board. Uh, we would remove the $200 citation if the vehicle is removed within 30 days.

Board Member

Yeah, I'm not trying to give her a next month.

Roy Sudler, Jr.

But I don't know, the the committee makes the decision as a body. So if you so if we want to make that

Board Member

I want to make a motion that says 30 days from receipt.

Female Speaker

We have a motion.

Roy Sudler, Jr.

Yeah, so we

Board Member 1

Or repaired within 30 days, right?

Board Member 4

Or repaired. Or or something. Or or something. And if if somebody is going to reach out to her from the board, there's storage units that you can go park that car in that is in compliance. So...

Board Member 5

For the record, yeah, and for the record, I do know I do know a few people that are willing to help seniors with for like no cost. I'm seeing it. Not They'll try to find unusual stuff. Um, okay, so what do we need to do? Board President, do you have any recommendation?

Chair

Thank you, sir. That's on behalf of the, you know, city, and we all do it for our constituents, and thank you for recognizing.

Board Member

I have a question. She sounds impaired. Is there any- does the city have any ability to make a referral to anybody in like in a state agency or anything?

Board Chair

No, basically there is The modification is if uh

Board Member 1

The modification's acceptable.

Board Chair

is accepted. All in favor?

Male Speaker

I would recomm- I would, if I could, just recommend adjourning, going off the record, and then having further discussion about that.

Board Member 5

Aye.

Board Member 3

Aye.

Board Chair

Any opposed? No opposition. It passes unanimously. So it will go out from the date it is actually sent out, that is when the 30 days starts. And then she's in compliance, or she's not.

Board Member

Okay, that's fine.

Male Speaker

Sure. So I can take my slippers in.

Male Speaker

That's a good point.

Board Member

Thank you.

Chair

Um, well, we- did we vote? Yeah, we already- Okay. So...

Board Member 5

Thank you. Above and beyond what you've just facilitated. Thank you, Doc. That was very nice of you.

Chair

Um, did you- We are adjourned. The- let me do- let me do this properly. Let me do this correctly. It's been a while. The, uh, Code Board of Appeals for the City of Dover, Delaware, is now adjourned. If there's no further business, is now adjourned. Thank you, everyone.