Transcript: Council Committee of the Whole Meeting

Fred A. Neil

Call the Council Committee of the Whole meeting to order uh now of this Tuesday, March 24th, 2026. I'd like to remind the public that the public comments are welcome on any item and permitted at the appropriate time. You have before you this evening's agenda, and I would entertain a motion for its adoption.

Julia M. Pillsbury

Move to adopt the agenda.

Donyale M. Hall

Pills-

Fred A. Neil

It's moved and seconded. And thirded. Uh all in favor, please say aye.

Council Members

Aye.

Fred A. Neil

Any opposed? It is passed unanimously. Um I now recognize Chairman Andre Boggerty to conduct the business of the Safety Advisory and Transportation Committee. The floor is yours, sir.

Andre M. Boggerty

Thank you. I call Safety Advisory and Transportation uh Committee meeting to order. I move for adoption of the agenda.

Julia M. Pillsbury

Move to adopt the agenda.

Donyale M. Hall

Pillsbury, second.

Andre M. Boggerty

Has been properly moved and seconded. Ready for the question. All those in favor signify by saying aye.

Council Members

Aye.

Andre M. Boggerty

Oppose? The motion carries. I now call uh the first item on the agenda. It's by uh uh where where who and uh for uh civilian the doctor Doctor, thank you. Good to see you again. Good to see you, too. I'm not sure if uh uh other individuals are on online, but it she is. Okay, uh uh Ms. Mack is online, so both both civilians uh are present. Thank you all for your attendance and sacrifices um here in the city. Um I move for uh I call Jason Lyons regarding the East Loockerman Street update. Jason Lyons, director of water, wastewater treatment. Did that fly snatch your plate, Tyson?

Jason Lyon

Well, good evening, everyone. Jason Lyon, Director of Water and Wastewater, Engineering Services uh with the City of Dover. Uh so before you this evening was an item that was originally on the January 27th Council Committee of the Whole agenda. We had a snow storm. It was then pushed to the second meeting in February. We had a snow storm, so uh you're lucky enough to get me tonight, I suppose. Uh so um late last year, we had some meetings about the Loockerman Street situation. Um there's a summary of that in front of you this evening. Uh essentially the the direction from this body was to temporarily close down the road and do some investigation on the speeding and what impacts we could alleviate uh through different um traffic calming measures. Uh so in the next slide, please. Uh just to give everyone kind of a refresher on this, the the impacted area is this development. We're going to call south of Division Street um and kind of east of Route 13 behind the Burger King um is a uh is East Loockerman Street, which just for reference, this portion of East Loockerman Street is owned and maintained by the city, not the state. Everything west of 13 is owned by the state. Um so, again, just to recap, the the road going east on on East Loockerman Street into this development is a one way only, only going due east. You cannot come back out uh westbound. Um so, again, this is the the the map of the

City Staff

affected residents that would be impacted by this closure, either directly or indirectly. Next slide, please.

City Staff

At the meeting, the original meeting in December, we had discussed about what kind of impacts this would be on emergency response. So this is just a simple screen capture of vehicles leaving Robbins Hose and getting to a couple different locations on on East Loockerman Street. And you'll notice there's a slight difference. In this this screenshot, we have a minute difference for the the fire apparatus to go down Division Street instead of down Loockerman Street to get to this location. Next slide has another example of a property further east further east on Loockerman Street, and this one has a slightly bigger differential in timing. Again, this was just brought up at the meeting. I wanted to make sure that we showed this to everyone so they are aware of it. Next slide, please.

City Staff

So after speaking with our team, this this involved many different aspects of the of the city, not just, you know, engineering or public works. The police department need to be aware of this, as well as the fire department. There was talks about having bollards put up, semi-permanent bollards during this investigation. Issue with that would be the cost, and also the potential for, you know, at the time we thought this was going to happen in January, the freeze-thaw issue. The most effective way to handle this is to put up a trailblazer, so this is just an AI-generated picture of what it would look like. This would eliminate vehicles to go through this direction while we're doing the study. It's a very inefficient or not not extremely costly solution to this problem. We have this infrastructure already, so it's a matter of putting it out there. So this would be what it would look like. This is what the the traveler would see as they're driving just past Burger King.

City Staff

Next slide is really just about how are we going to handle next steps. So at the meeting in December, we talked about putting up this this blockade temporarily to do some investigation. Our team has reached out to some engineers to get cost estimates on traffic calming proposals on this road. As we talked at that meeting, maybe there's an idea of putting chicanes up. We are not allowed to put speed bumps or speed humps per our code, so that's an idea. So we have received an estimate on that. We would need to provide enough notification to the residents about putting this closure down. Typically, in line with DelDOT regulations, it's 10 business days. So, you know, we can easily do that with a notification board, and we wouldn't need to put it on the east side of the development because they can't go that way anyway. So it really just needs to be on the side that you're going towards the east. And then of course, the next kind of direction that we need as a as a team is, you know, how do we secure funding to do this investigation? Because it's not cheap, we don't have it budgeted. And finally, I'd like to get some direction from this body on whether or not we should notify the entire development, which would be my recommendation, or just the folks that are on Loockerman Street. I am open for any questions, and hopefully we can start a dialogue. Thank you.

Andre M. Boggerty

Thank you. Um, you've heard the presentation, very well done. Are there any questions from members of Council? Uh Council, the chair recognizes Council President.

Fred A. Neil

Yeah, thank you, um Mr. Chairman. I going back to the same thing that is happening throughout this entire city. We have the next concern is Lincoln Park speeding, and then there's speeding on Denneys Road, then there's speeding on the intersection, there's another speeding on another intersection. And I think maybe we have to revisit uh the speed cameras. Now actually a lot of the speeding that we study, in other words when we put the uh lines down and check this actual speeding, it doesn't go to the speeding limit. But the fact is if we could have a flying squad in terms of of cameras that we move into an area at the time that speeding is is a factor and to see if we can actually catch speeders at that particular point so that they know that they're going to pay a penalty if they're going to speed in these areas. Speeding is caused by people who just don't care. They they just going to do what they're going to do and these cars are so fast, uh you could be very comfortable in a car that's going 40-50 miles an hour in in a in a 25 or 35 mile zone. So I mean basically that's one of the problems we have, but it's happening in different areas of the city and we're getting continual complaints. So I'm just bringing that up again as a possible solution of having that uh camera. Now there are certain things that have to happen. One, when that speeder goes through, it has to be processed very quickly otherwise it kind of dies. And I think that if we bring back the ordinances on it, it's conceivable that we can bring this under control a lot faster than if we do something else because this is one area that has to happen. It's we'll be talking about uh the the Lincoln Park area, but we have it all over the city and we have it on a continual basis. And I'm just throwing that out because I think we have to revisit this as a point to basically control what's happening with speeding and taking money out of the pockets of the people who are doing it. If you're going over a certain limit it's going to cost them. And we can move these uh cameras or barriers all over the place in order to make sure that they're paying it. So I'm throwing that out for for that purpose and I yield Mr. Chairman.

Andre M. Boggerty

Thank you. The chair recognizes uh Councilwoman Arndt and then followed by Councilman Dr. Sudler.

Tricia K. Arndt

Thank you. So I agree with you neighborhood should be notified, not just the folks on East Loockerman, um because the entire neighborhood is is util- utilizing that street to access the neighborhood and their homes, I'm quite certain. Um I think to Council President's point with speeding throughout the city, I think it's a dangerous precedent to close one street because of speeding, because

Tricia K. Arndt

So the next request is going to be the "I want to close my street and I want my street closed off for speeding." So if we do it once, I feel like we need to be prepared to to field those additional requests. Looking at this picture, and with these two red square triangle signs here, if we had a sign that said "no through traffic, residents only," something to indicate that through traffic is not welcome, something to indicate, you know, reminders of the speed limit. There's just nothing here that is telling people that we, you know, speeding is a problem and we're watching you and we want you to slow down. Those two red signs there, I mean, I never learned about those in driver's ed. I don't even know what they're supposed to signify.

Tricia K. Arndt

So just I don't think we've exercised all of our options at this point. In terms of traffic calming, that street itself is so narrow that it it's traffic calming in and of itself, or at least it should be, with the exception of the few people that are speeding through the neighborhood. We've done the speed studies and it showed that speeding was I'm not going to quote a number, because I don't remember. It was quite some time ago that we had that study done, but it did not indicate that speeding was such that we had to take aggressive action. So those are those are my recommendations. If we want to close it on a temporary basis, I would support doing it this way and then be ready to feel the complaints from the residents when they're upset that they can't get to their homes. I yield.

Andre M. Boggerty

Thank you. The Chair recognizes Dr. Sudler.

Roy Sudler, Jr.

Thank you. Thank you Chairman Boggerty for recognizing me. My question's in reference to speed cushions. Have we explored the option of speed cushions, which sounds like would be permissible. From what I'm reading, it is specifically defined as and regulated as a distinct alternative to speed humps because they include wheel cutouts that allow large emergency vehicles to pass through without slowing down. So have we explored speed cushions?

Staff Member

Yeah, this was brought up. Are you reading the City of Dover ordinance, or is just a

Roy Sudler, Jr.

Well, what I was reading was what is permissible in the City of Dover that's close to speed humps. And so they said speed cushions are similar to humps, but they allow for the apparatuses, the concerns about apparatuses, and the wheels, yes, to so it's like a great alternative it sounds like, and I was wondering if we explored that.

Staff Member

I believe that was part

Roy Sudler, Jr.

when was the adoption of that ordinance of speed, prohibited of speed humps? I think that's something we may need to revisit.

City Staff

I'm sorry, I was out of order. Permission to dialogue?

Andre M. Boggerty

Yes, sir, please. Thank you.

Andre M. Boggerty

Permission to dialogue granted. Thank you.

City Staff

Just looking up the code right now, Dr. Sudler.

Roy Sudler, Jr.

Yeah, no worries, Hon.

City Staff

I believe 2016.

Roy Sudler, Jr.

Right, I think yeah that was right about the time we came on council, Councilman Neil. Maybe it's something that we may need to revisit. Is there any data or data in regards to... well, I know other municipalities are still using it, right? So I know we sort of outlawed it or prohibited it based on some apparatus issues. With the new technology and the way they're building or constructing the apparatus now, the emergency apparatus now, do you think the slight hump, and I know there's some that protrude out more, the old school ones protruded out tremendously, like it was almost like you were going to do some hazards, right? And the other ones are like, okay. So, is there, can we look at that and see what other municipalities are doing? I know we sort of asked this to a certain extent, but a little bit more in depth because I think we may need to amend or alter what we put in place in 2016, 10 years ago—oh my god, 10 years ago—for, you know, something that's going to be more conducive for us now because it seems like people are just blowing past these speedometers, blowing past, not paying attention to signs, and I don't know what else that may keep them from speeding other than the humps. So, thank you, I yield. Thank you Chairman Boggerty for recognizing me.

Andre M. Boggerty

Oh, you're welcome. Anyone else? Members of council?

Gerald L. Rocha, Sr.

I have a question. How does this impact school bus routes?

City Staff

The schools will have similar delays that we had with regard to emergency vehicles, they'd have to take a different route. So it would probably be a minute to two minute delay on getting where they're going to go. If we could go back to the, I'm sorry, Crystal, the map that has the Google, yeah.

Gerald L. Rocha, Sr.

We have an esteemed member of the Capital School District Board. Foreseeing any challenges with this, again, I am sensitive to, although they're not here, that doesn't mean they're still not heard. The residents over there and their concerns of the speeding and the history that they've experienced. However, I'm sensitive to what Councilwoman Arndt stated that if we do this once, it's going to be a Pandora's box, and we'll be losing out everywhere. And if you had to endure what we are currently enduring in my neighborhood about detours, it's it's it says two minutes, but by the time the traffic backs up and and people are routing through the neighborhoods...

Gerald L. Rocha, Sr.

it it it can be calm. It's two minutes without any barriers of traffic or individuals rerouting, but we just experienced over on where we live, it's been a nightmare, we'd say. So, so especially in the morning with school buses and then again with Councilwoman Arndt says that if we do this once, we'll probably be hearing this. I'm sensitive. I know she's not here and I know she will yell at me, but even with Miss Mame's concerns in that in that area, genuine concerns. But I'm I'm concerned that once we do this once, it's we'll have a whole city full of those. Yeah, uh basic. There you go. Thank you. I yield to you.

Councilwoman

Good evening. Um, yeah, so that is a concern. Um, it would just mean students would have to get up early, we have to adjust our our routes. We utilize our buses, many of our buses, you know, are utilized for all of the schools. And so, you know, it would just be a matter of trans our transportation department being able to modify the route and basing it off of the additional minute, two, five, 10 minutes um that it may add to the route. Um, I also have similar concerns as Councilman Boggerty and Councilwoman Arndt in that, um, speeding is an issue and I'm sure, you know, if we open it up more, Ms. Pennington, Penn Pennington, um, would also express concerns about speeding on Kirkwood Street. So, I do hear those concerns as well and I think that, you know, while this might help, you know, this particular concern, we do have a larger issue within the city and so keeping that in mind and recognizing that we probably need um, maybe it is speed cameras, but we probably do need something on a larger scale that would accommodate the whole city versus one street at a time.

Councilwoman

Thank you.

Gerald L. Rocha, Sr.

Anyone else? Um, anyone online? Uh must know that Miss Smack is online, so I don't know if she needed to be recognized or not. Yes, no. She did? Okay. I think uh the Chair recognizes Ms. Smack.

Smack

Hey, y'all doing? Um, I'm definitely um opposed to and and I appreciate you bringing all this to our attention from the last meeting when it was brought out, but um I frequent that area a lot and one of the things that I see is some people don't even go right. They go straight down a service road to get to, what is that road, Little Creek? I think that's the name of the road, and they're not even supposed to go down that road. So I think that closing that road off, we're going to have more issues on the road when you're coming out of Burger King, either make a left or right, you're not supposed to go straight, but cars are going straight. Um, I think that if we're closing that road, we're going to see more problems and then businesses are going and that little um that little shopping center there will complain. My suggestion would be, you know, get one of those get a camera out there to see what

Speaker

you know, what we can catch um to stop people from doing it. Maybe advertise it like, "Hey, you're on camera," or something like that. I don't know what kind of signage would have to be displayed uh for you know, uh DelDOT, but I do think that um closing it is not good. I was looking at the minutes uh for our uh Robbins Hose Company. That's not good. A minute, a whole lot can happen, just from, you know, some meetings I've been to, a minute can a lot of things can happen as far as destruction and things of that nature. So, I'm totally against this. I just wanted to offer my opinion, and uh um I I think we need to get some cameras out there and maybe some type of signage. Thank you.

Roy Sudler, Jr.

Thank you. Um Chair Chair recognizes Director Lyon.

Jason Lyon

Thank you. Um so I appreciate everyone's feedback. Um if if Chair wouldn't mind, I'd like to address these comments that have been brought up.

Roy Sudler, Jr.

Yes, thank you. And permission to dialogue if if there's some spontaneous questions.

Jason Lyon

Very good, thank you. Um so, uh we have talked about the speed cameras. I know everyone in this room has heard about them. Um the City of Newark has just put up a new one um in their jurisdiction. And just to remind everyone the way that this works is you have to rent the cameras at a certain price, and then we have to do a cost-benefit analysis to see if we're going to get enough people to offset that cost, right? So if we have a ticket of a certain amount of money, we have to offset that against the rental price for these speed cameras, which is under contract with the State of Delaware. DelDOT has to approve a uh a study, and unfortunately the study that was done in this particular street would not move the needle. There wasn't enough speeding on this road to justify um this the State to approve the speeding over 11 mph in the 85th percentile. So it could be done, uh but we need to really crunch the numbers because if not we're going to be losing money on this. Um and I understand the safety aspect of it, uh but we need to make sure that we're also financially prudent uh in that regard. So that's one one thing I want to bring up. Um I'll be happy to reach out if this is the pleasure to to our colleagues in Newark to see how things are going, and I can report back. Um that'd be that'd be no problem at all. Um the uh the other the other thing I want to mention is you know, we're in front of this this committee now because of a motion that was made on December 9th to close this road temporarily to do studies. So this doesn't mean that we're going to close the road forever, um it just means that we're going to close it, we're going to try to study and see if we can come up with traffic calming ideas that may benefit. Um I know the folks that provided a petition to this this body, uh they want to see it closed permanently, but the motion was to make temporarily so we can investigate any potential solutions to the problem. Um the the ballpark estimate that we received to do to have an engineer do some evaluation on this road, both geometrically and and more or less with signage, uh was about $20,000. We don't have that money laying around. Um I would suggest that I our team could reach out for CTF funding for this. Uh that would be one source of revenue. Um DelDOT projects, uh there's also DelDOT

Staff Member

chance, but for this sort of cost, I don't know if it'd be it'd be worth it, um, based on how long it would take to get the job done. So, um, I just want to bring those things up for this body to kind of consider as we move forward. And again, um, looking for direction on who we should notify, when we should implement this this this temporary closure. And then if you guys have any other ideas for sources of revenue, I'd be all ears for that. Thank you.

Andre M. Boggerty

Thank you. The chair recognizes Dr. Pillsbury, Councilwoman Dr. Pillsbury.

Julia M. Pillsbury

Thank you. Um how expensive would it be to put up a 25-mph speed limit sign and a children at play sign or whatever language the signs for kids have? Um, because I've seen those in different neighborhoods to encourage people to slow down. And it seems to me to be a rather inexpensive approach to this. And I agree with everything Councilwoman Arndt said.

Staff Member

Um, so that's a great question. I don't have that number in front of me. Um, I I would probably venture to guess a a sign is somewhere in the neighborhood of $50 to $75 ballpark. Um, but I two signs, 150, 200 bucks, but um and that includes, you know, you got to you got to get a pole and all that other good stuff. So, um, I thought there was a speed limit sign. Can we go to the screenshot with uh the entrance into that little area, please?

Unknown Speaker

So there is no sign. There are stop signs.

Tricia K. Arndt

Now the 25 mph is the electronic one about halfway down the street.

Andre M. Boggerty

Thank you. Yep. Thank you. Does that satisfy you, Dr. Pillsbury?

Julia M. Pillsbury

Yes, thank you. I just think it's a very quick and inexpensive way to at least initially attack the problem.

Andre M. Boggerty

Yes, because $20,000 would have a certain member who sits in the front row of our constituents, tell us about $20,000, $20,000 bill, Dr. Faust will Councilman The chair recognizes Dr. Sudler.

Roy Sudler, Jr.

Thank you, um Chairman Boggerty, for recognizing me. Um, two thoughts that came to my mind. One, great idea about the the sign, signage. I was thinking also, um, one of those signages that are digital and that if you're going too fast, the one that has like the police lights. I like that, it sort of gets people a little alert. And then also, um, what kind of analysis are you talking about, that traffic uh study? Are you talking about a safety analysis, crash analysis, a traffic impact study, or a traffic operational analysis? Because I know that for those type of uh, um, analysis, there's different periods of time for the study. And I think the crash analysis is the one that might be the most, um, you know, um, feasible time-wise and and also cost-wise, and still achieve I think what you're trying to achieve is a a count. I think that I think that one does like a a count, um, a calm analysis of how many vehicles, but

Gerald L. Rocha, Sr.

Which which analysis were were y'all looking at?

Jason Lyon

So it's called a traffic calming analysis, and it's utilizing the manual for um I believe there's there's there's a DelDOT traffic calming manual and there's a federal one um that will be utilized by this firm. And that takes into account crash data, speed count that we have that we've collected from our police department. We have all that information, that data has already been provided to them to to process.

Gerald L. Rocha, Sr.

Okay.

Jason Lyon

Um so it's really just about what what sort of geometric features could we do. As Councilwoman Arndt mentioned, this is a very narrow road.

Gerald L. Rocha, Sr.

Right.

Jason Lyon

It's 21 ft curb to curb. It's not very wide. So the idea of doing like a chicane or a roundabout is very difficult to to fit in there.

Gerald L. Rocha, Sr.

Right.

Jason Lyon

Uh but this this this firm would would look at different striping or signage, something to that tune to kind of see what could be done to kind of have the driver stay in their lane. Uh I think to this body our recommendation was to stripe the road uh with with double double yellow line uh and a white shoulder, even though there's there really shouldn't be parking on this road, it's not wide enough, uh to give that visual uh look of keep in that lane. You know, if you've ever driven in Pennsylvania, they have these horizontal white lines coming in.

Gerald L. Rocha, Sr.

Yeah.

Jason Lyon

It's a visual deterrent for you to speed, to try to keep inside that area. Those are all things that they're going to evaluate and provide us feedback for and and you know precedents and stuff like that. Uh and if I could step back a second on those um the speed signs that you're talking about, the the radar uh with solar-powered and feedback signs, those are the ones that have the red and uh white lights that kind of Yeah, they shout at you. Ballpark uh $10,000 to $12,000.

Gerald L. Rocha, Sr.

Okay. And and okay. And and how many would you think that we would need there? At least

Jason Lyon

We've had one there already. Uh so there's a stop

Gerald L. Rocha, Sr.

You've had you've had one already there?

Jason Lyon

Yeah, there has been one there. Um we have a temporary one.

Gerald L. Rocha, Sr.

Was it temporary?

Jason Lyon

Yeah. Like a mobile one.

Gerald L. Rocha, Sr.

How do we assess whether the temporary mobile ones are actually um effective?

Jason Lyon

So, you can get um you can get a a a more expensive version of these called

Gerald L. Rocha, Sr.

I guess I'm sorry to cut you I guess what I'm saying is do we have any data to to to show whether or not that temporary one was effective and and calmed the traffic for a certain period of time and and by what percentage?

Jason Lyon

We do not. Uh there are there are devices out there that can provide you with data.

Gerald L. Rocha, Sr.

Yeah.

Jason Lyon

Those are more expensive and they require

City Staff

five years. I believe um it was March of '25 and September of '25? It's older than that. Okay, so maybe it's older than a year. I I think March and September come to mind with the study data. Um I'll have to get back to you on that. I don't have the details.

Roy Sudler, Jr.

Okay. Cuz from so a lot of the research I've done, at least um um information is is is typically relevant or super relevant within at least a two-year period. Um anything after three or four, then we probably need to get more data. Okay, thank you. The Chair- The Chair recognizes Dr. Pillsbury.

Julia M. Pillsbury

Would it be appropriate to make a motion to put a 25 mph speed limit at the entrance to the street and then just the simple sign that he said would be $75, and another one a little further in that says caution, children at play?

Roy Sudler, Jr.

Um I think, I mean yes, at this time there's says no committee action required, but I do think that there can be a motion um um made and proposed uh if if the if if the councilwoman would like to make that motion and it's properly second.

Julia M. Pillsbury

I would like to make a motion to put a speed limit sign at the entrance to the development and caution children at play, or however you word word that sign, a little further in to remind people to slow down. Um soon, as soon as possible, because I think if we keep discussing this, we're not getting anywhere in terms of slowing the traffic down, and at least that'll give us a start.

Roy Sudler, Jr.

Okay, a motion has been made and, is there a second?

Council Member

Second.

Roy Sudler, Jr.

It's been properly moved and second. Discussion, are you ready for the question or discussion? Discussion. The Chair recognizes uh Councilman Anderson.

David L. Anderson

Uh thank you, Mr. Chairman. And I'd also would uh recommend, I don't think this needs to necessarily be part of the motion if it's understood that we place the strictly enforced signs uh at the speed limits.

Roy Sudler, Jr.

So that's that's an amendment to the motion?

David L. Anderson

I mean if that if that if the cost of it, I don't know it'd have to be, but we can make an amendment.

Roy Sudler, Jr.

Okay, cuz she specified the signage, so if you want to modify it, sir...

David L. Anderson

All right, I'd like to make a motion for an amendment.

Roy Sudler, Jr.

The Chair recognizes, do you accept the amendment?

Julia M. Pillsbury

Yes.

David L. Anderson

And there's the motion and the seconding.

Roy Sudler, Jr.

All right. There's additional discussion. I think a member of the public had a question or comment.

Public Commenter

I got a suggestion that's going to cost you nothing. I worked at Cooper Trauma and we had people speeding around the area and almost killed a child. They resolved the issue by putting a patrol car out there with no one in it, darkened windows, and a dummy in the seat. And they had a recorder so they caught the-

Public Commenter

people that were speeding, that's one suggestion. Two, have the police officers at different times when you think this is going to happen out there with radar guns with their motorcycle cops, that's what saved crimes, or with technology, what about a license plate reader? If someone races through the area and it's 25 miles an hour and they're doing 50 or 60, oof, we got funds right there. So, whoever's in the car, whoever owns it, either you give the ticket to the person who was racing or you've got to eat that ticket. $125, $250, it will pay for itself. Just some suggestions, but the unmarked patrol car with the battery recording got a lot of people and saved a lot of lives, and they used to change it up. One week it may be the dummy car, next week it was a patrolman in there. And once they start hitting the people, all the speeders went down. Cuz uh I picked up too many kids off the road that were hit by cars or motorcycles, so take it for what I'm saying.

sure um the

Thank you for that, and I'm sure um the director will take that as part of his uh study. Chair? Ma'am, the chair recognizes you.

Bonnie

Hi, my name is Bonnie, I live in Dover. I actually live on Kirkwood Street. I have been trying to get someone to take control over the speeding on Kirkwood Street since 2005. We have no signs and it's not just the public, it's also the police that fly down that road. I watched them run the stop signs. I watched them run the buses, and the buses speed down there, too. I watched that. I actually approached a lady one time because she almost hit the back of my grandbaby's handicap bus. I have an issue with that. They're children. If you're in a hurry, take another route. If you're in that much of a hurry, get up a half an hour early, go to work. The issue's just not over in that development. This issue's been going on in Dover since I moved in. I called all the time. I even begged for a police officer to come and sit at the corner to catch them. I never got no answer. But you could ride down on the street and see this cop sitting there eating lunch or sitting there just talking. If you're going to do one area, then you need to do them all, because it's not just in that development, Kirkwood Street's really bad. I watch them run the stop signs. I see it all. But by the time the cops get there, they're gone. I watch people fight over parking spots over the club. People be hitting each other out there fighting on who's going to park where. It's ridiculous on that street. It's been going on since 2005, nothing's been done. My opinion is, if you're going to do one, do all or don't do none.

sure um the

Thank you. Thank you for that.

Roy Sudler, Jr.

Uh, there's been a motion made and seconded. Um, are you ready for the question? If you be if are Um, I just wanted to restate the motion for the record so everybody would know. Um, the mo- motion was to uh add add add signs to include strictly enforced at the appropriate locations in the area. Um, all those in favor, signify by saying aye.

Council Members

Aye. Aye.

Roy Sudler, Jr.

Any? Like to say the motion carries.

Roy Sudler, Jr.

Um, we can move on to number two, which is um which is um uh which is um we are um addressing the speeding concerns and update at Lincoln Park. Uh, this was to continue to be heard by uh Director of Waste Water Water and Waste Water, uh Jason Lyons.

Jason Lyon

Uh, good evening. For the record, Jason Lyon, Director of Water, Wastewater, and Engineering Services. I do not have a slide deck for this um update, um but I will talk uh about how this is going. So the uh several months ago, there was a request made to evaluate the speeding concerns in the Lincoln Park development. Um, so our team reached out to uh to firms to do a traffic calming study, uh similar to what we were just talking about. Uh, we have gotten an estimate. We have uh an agreement with CTF funds to pay for that uh agreement. And uh we're just waiting for that agreement to be authorized, because we cannot start work on a project with CTF funds until we have the agreement. Uh, so we are patiently waiting on that to to to come. Um, so just kind of to highlight some of the the things that will happen, um Lincoln Street, Bertram Street, Slaughter Street, and Reese Street are the bigger kind of collector roads in that development. Um, so this firm will um will look into uh parking trends, behaviors, accident reports, uh any sort of data that we have collected. They will then look into um the potential for chicanes, medians, something that is kind of built up to stop people from driving. So if you've driven on State Street uh towards the lake, there's a chicane there. Uh, there's also one on Bicentennial Boulevard, so that's an idea. Lincoln Lincoln Street uh for sure is is wide enough to accommodate these sort of traffic calming features. Uh, East Slaughter Street on the other hand is not. Um, but Lincoln Street is quite wide. So um again, we have a we have a game plan, uh just waiting for the funding to come through, and then we can start working on this project. Now this uh evaluation will provide uh recommendations and cost estimates for what would need to be done uh based on the data that they would collect. Be happy to answer any questions.

Roy Sudler, Jr.

The Chair recognizes Councilwoman Arndt.

Tricia K. Arndt

Thank you. So how much was the uh what was the cost of the study, and who is the firm?

Jason Lyon

Um...

City Staff

The firm that provided the estimate was RK&K, which is a a firm that does a lot of these studies for DelDOT. The cost was in the neighborhood of $48,000.

Tricia K. Arndt

$48,000. And the timeline for, like, how long it would take to get that study done?

City Staff

Uh, good question. One moment. I apologize, Councilwoman, I don't have that date, but I can get that information for you.

Tricia K. Arndt

Just noting that, you know, we throw around do a study, do a study, do a study, and this the amounts for the consultants to do these studies, it's it's substantial, and it it adds up. $48,000 is it's a lot. I'm glad there's CTF funds, and hopefully we'll get some good data. Thank you.

City Staff

You're welcome.

Andre M. Boggerty

Thank you. The chair recognizes, uh, Councilman Dr. Sudler, and then right after that, Councilman th- not Doctor, Councilman Anderson.

Roy Sudler, Jr.

Thank you, Chairman Boggerty, for recognizing me. Um, what kind of study are we doing for that area, Lincoln Street and Slaughter Street?

City Staff

Uh, Lincoln Park, uh, so not just Lincoln Street.

Roy Sudler, Jr.

Gotcha, I'm sorry. Okay, Lincoln Park, yeah.

City Staff

Yeah, uh, so similar to what what we were just talking about, East Loockerman Street, it will evaluate the operational, um-

Roy Sudler, Jr.

Traffic calming analysis.

City Staff

traffic calming analysis, yeah.

Roy Sudler, Jr.

Okay. I know that in 2000 and, I think, 16, when we first came on board, we got we had a lot of work done there. Um, a lot of infrastructure, road system infrastructure, new paving, um, asphalt paving, ADA-required sidewalks. I noticed that Alma Street, Slaughter Street, um, did not receive, um, paving, nor did they receive the ADA, um, infrastructure, road infrastructure and curbing, which the which is aligned with the rest of the Lincoln Park area. Do you know why?

City Staff

Um, so my recollection is that the certain roads were picked, um, a lot of them were paid for with CTF funds. So it was requests made through the legislators to get those roads done. To answer your question about why Slaughter Street didn't get ADA improvements-

Roy Sudler, Jr.

Nor Alma.

City Staff

Nor Alma, thank you. Um, ADA improvements by way of, you know, sidewalk leveling or curb ramps are done as a requirement when you pave a road completely. So that is why that hasn't been done, um, ahead of time, so to speak. It would be done in conjunction with the road paving.

Roy Sudler, Jr.

Uh, right. So I've had a lot of constituents in that area complain about why were they left out, um, when the entire, um, the rest of the community has been repaved with new sidewalks? Um, how do we get that rectified? How can we address that? Since we're already looking at traffic calming measures on on that in that area, um, I would like to see the road done to complete the entire Lincoln Park area so that, um, constituents in that area don't feel left out, or feel like why was that chosen? What was the distinction that didn't allow us to get done versus them getting done? Because the legislators in uh that went through that community was us, City Councilpersons. I do believe you were on Council, ma'am, as well-

Roy Sudler, Jr.

Councilman Neil and I think Councilman Slavin, and I don't know if you were, you weren't there. Okay, I think Ann Marie Townshend and I think Scott Koenig, and we've all walked that community. It was one of the initiatives of Councilman Anderson and I, and we walked the entire community pointing out the areas that needed to be adjusted and addressed. And we were to an understanding that the entire community was going to be new road systems with ADA required. So I'm a little disappointed that somehow we weren't able to fulfill that request totally. So I'm just looking to see what we can do now moving forward to try to catch up where we, you know, weren't able to to address because you know, I'm constantly hearing that. And I'm sure you've been out there towards Slaughter and you can see Slaughter Street definitely need sidewalks. People are constantly speeding, and I also noticed that the speedometer, the digital, is not operating right now, so there as well as in Woodcrest. In Woodcrest I think near Wilson Drive, I'm so glad, must have had too much coffee, I'm sorry. But also Woodcrest, Wilson Drive, over there where we did some road adjustments, I don't know if we put a new pipe system, but where the apartments are, I think that's either Wilson Drive or Woodcrest Drive, in that area there was some asphalt replacement where they did some patching. That patching has now created a mess. I took some pictures with my phone, so what I'll do is I have to send them to you, download it and send you those pictures. But I've got complaints about that, too. I just figured I'd, sorry to dump that on you now, but while it's on my brain, you get a little older, I've got to do it while I can, you know. So, thank you, I yield.

Council Chair

All right. Thank you, Dr. Sudler. Chair recognizes Councilman Anderson.

David L. Anderson

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. It would be quick because Dr. Sudler addressed most of my concerns. I was a little bit curious about if you're going to wait until the study for us to find out what the proposals are for like Slaughter Street. We know where they want to go, Lincoln Street, but Slaughter, it's obviously if you put chicanery like on Lincoln Street, it's going to push people to Slaughter Street because they're parallel. So, pardon me, so I was just curious about that, but-

Jason Lyon

Um, the sidewalk issue, as as you stated, Dr. Sudler, I don't believe there is a sidewalk on either side of the street on Slaughter, if memory serves. Um, and and putting sidewalk on a street like that with no sidewalk there originally, it does there is some design work that needs to be kind of ironed out, um, but all that would need to be kind of hashed out throughout this process. Thank you, I yield.

City Staff

Yeah, one of the highlighted roads is Slaughter Street to take a look at these traffic calming issues. So I think it behoove us to do a holistic approach to this. Obviously, we don't want to pave it if we're just going to put a chicane in there later. So I think that will be part of what we provide to them as part of this analysis.

Andre M. Boggerty

Thank you. Councilman?

Roy Sudler, Jr.

Thank you, Chairman Boggerty, for recognizing me. Um, it does appear that there is some sidewalk on on Slaughter Street, but only only as you get to, um, only only as you get to Irma Street. So, once you get to Irma Street, um, as you go further towards the, you know, hospital on Slaughter Street, um, there's there's no sidewalks at all, um, from my picture when I'm looking at it now. Um, so that definitely needs uh to be addressed. And then also, while we're talking about that area, um, there's still dumping. Even though the sign is there, it says no dumping, what they're doing is not dumping where the sign is, but they're they're they're scooting over in the cul-de-sac, the little corner part, and dumping there. I have pictures of that as as well. Um, so I think we need to put a camera, a camera there. Um, I'm just trying to get it all out now. So if they would try to get a camera there, um, while it's on my mind. But, I just I just want to say it for the record. I yield, thank you.

Andre M. Boggerty

Any more? All right. Thank you. Um, this was no action taken, um, required by committee. So if there be nothing else, I call for the adjournment of the Safety Advisory and Transportation Committee. All those in favor signify by saying aye.

Roy Sudler, Jr.

Aye.

Andre M. Boggerty

The committee is adjourned. I turn it over back to our Council President.

Fred A. Neil

Thank you. I now recognize Chairman David Anderson to conduct the business of the Legislative, Finance, and Administration Committee in the continuation of Jason Lyon's day on this council session.

David L. Anderson

Uh, thank you, Mr. President. Uh, give just a moment for committee members to get in place. Uh, I see Mr. Shevock's online. Are you are you there, Mr. Shevock?

William Shevock

Good evening, sir.

David L. Anderson

I hear you, thank you. All right, I see you now, too. Good to see you. And Mr. Garfinkel is here, uh, in person and all set. So now, I will entertain a motion to adopt the agenda.

William Shevock

So moved.

Julia M. Pillsbury

Second.

David L. Anderson

Moved by Mr. Shevock and seconded by Dr. Pillsbury, uh, to adopt the agenda. Is there amendment or discussion? Seeing none, all in favor?

Julia M. Pillsbury

Aye.

David L. Anderson

Aye.

David L. Anderson

Any opposed? The agenda is adopted. First item, evaluation of bids, Water Street flooding improvements. Mr. Jason Lyon.

Jason Lyon

Good eve-

Council Member

Director of Water/Wastewater?

Jason Lyon

Good evening, Chair, fellow council members, and Team Dover. Jason Lyon, City of Dover Director of Water, Wastewater, and Engineering Services. Before you this evening is a project that was budgeted in the FY26 capital improvement plan to improve the flooding issues on Water Street. So, for those of you that have been around the city for a long time, this road is named Water Street aptly, because it floods quite a bit, specifically at the intersection of Governors Avenue and Water Street. I I recall the the weekend that my son was going to be baptized, we had an enormous amount of rain and there was a Tahoe that was parked at that King's Tire or something, and it was up to the rear the the side-view mirror. So,

Jason Lyon

anyway, just some context and lame storytelling. So, so anyway, this project originally budgeted we had 1.45 million, I'm going to get a little bit into some specific issues with this project and then a happy story at the end. So, as everyone's aware, the family courthouse is being built on that corner. And as part of any project that is of such substance, DelDOT will require that road to be paved that they're adjacent to.

Jason Lyon

So the family courthouse, part of their responsibility for their project is to repave Water Street from Governors to their project extent limits, which is just west of of State Street. So when we found out about that, we said, "Well, we have a water project, a stormwater project, that we want to get done. If we don't do it and they pave it, DelDOT has what's called a five-year moratorium, which means you can't open up the road for five years." So, bless you.

Jason Lyon

So we coordinated with with the state and said, "Hey, listen, we really want to get this work done. Can you just hold off on your paving so we don't mess it up?" And so we've agreed to that. And we are only doing this section of the project from State Street to Governors because of the the rush for the family courthouse, right? So they're they're planning on moving in, I want to say late summer, early fall, so we're really trying to get this project done so we can get it cleaned up for the project and and and be out of the way. The original scope of the entire project spans from State Street to the DART bus stop. We Here's the good news. We were informed about six weeks ago that we we were provided CDS money, which is Congressional Directed Spending money, in to the tune of of $1 million for this project. But we would not be able to do the work for those other two phases to the west until we get that agreement signed, and that takes 18 months minimum from the federal government. So, that is why there's such a discrepancy with the budget that you see and the amount that we're going to spend. But again, we do have some federal funds coming through to do the remainder of the project. It's just going to take a little bit longer. And the phasing of this is actually appropriate because Governors Avenue is a low point. So it's not like we're stopping mid-slope. It it is a good place to kind of break off the project, and we kind of make the the state happy. So that's kind of the background story on that.

City Staff

We provided um this out through our procurement team. This this bid was uh researched through the Office of Supplier Diversity. Uh we've received eight bids on this project, which is very high. Uh so we're very happy that we're getting that kind of competitive number uh with our bidding. Um you'll notice on the committee action form there is a a fair span of prices from our low price of $530,000 roughly to uh just over a million. So you know, some we've talked about this often, some contractors have a lot of projects going on, so they're just going to throw a lot of money at this and say hopefully it sticks. Others need work and and so they've provided a a fair price. So uh, in any event it's good for the city when we get multiple bids. Um, A-Del Construction uh had a responsive low bid of $531,916. Uh we've looked at their submission, they met all the requirements. They've done lots of work for us in the past um and we feel comfortable with awarding them this bid. Um and I just want to reiterate, this is for just this section of the project. Uh the remaining portion will be uh bid out after the agreement with the federal government is complete. I'll be happy to answer any questions.

Andre M. Boggerty

Thank you, um as as question that what would be asked is the bid

Chair

Chair recognizes Councilman Boggerty.

Andre M. Boggerty

I'm sorry. I'm sorry, I thought it was still me. [laughter] My bad. I apologize. I I when you get the power of the gavel, it's hard to let it go. I apologize, it's on you. My fault. So, I need to calm down. Uh yeah. Ad nauseam. Thank you.

Andre M. Boggerty

Thank you. Um my question is which which is going to be asked about the bidding process, was there could you just go through the language of the bidding process that we always ask?

City Staff

Sure, yeah, I'd be happy to. Um so this project was bid out um in accordance with our procurement policy. We bid this out, solicited from uh vendors. Again, we reached out through um uh contractors that are recognized in the supplier of office of diversity to the state of Delaware. We held a um a non-mandatory pre-bid meeting to to kind of go over the project in detail. Um and we have evaluated these these um bids based on if you're a minority owner, which is on the committee action form, you'll see the little asterisk. Uh or if you are a local vendor preference, which is also part of our procurement policy. So, the the non-mandatory pre-bid, did you have a open, or did people show up, was it online? So you did have people there. So, individuals, it was announced, and people could have came, and smaller vendors could have contacted A-Del, etc. All of that took place. Correct. Thank you. I yield. Thank you. Councilwoman Arndt followed by Doc Sudler. Thank you for recognizing me. So, just so I understand, this the state would have to do the paving within the limit of of the project, right? With where the where the courthouse is being constructed. So, we're going to do this infra-

Tricia K. Arndt

infrastructure project? Does the state then pick up the tab for finishing the project, so to speak, doing the paving overlay over the project after we've dug up the street and improved the infrastructure? So there's a cost savings in that the state is going to pay for the paving?

Jason Lyon

We are negotiating with them right now on that. I can't make any promises.

Tricia K. Arndt

I mean it seems like they should. They're going to do it anyway.

Jason Lyon

I would agree.

Tricia K. Arndt

Okay. Thank you. And I thought I had another question, but it has escaped my mind, so I yield.

Fred A. Neil

Please think about it. We'll come back to you. Dr. Sudler.

Roy Sudler, Jr.

Uh thank you Chairman Anderson for recognizing me. Has the county has the county weighed in? Quite often, I hear about the state providing funds, and then we having the funds. What about the county? Because this also benefits uh their constituents. Does the county ever give us any money for major projects that affect their constituents as well?

Jason Lyon

Uh great question. Well, I can tell you that we've had coordinated efforts with the county with regard to waste water projects where there's been some shared funding uh because they accept our sewage and treat it. I'm not aware of any sort of um cost sharing with the county with regard to infrastructure or road paving. I I've not been familiar with anything like that.

Roy Sudler, Jr.

I would request that I know I don't need for I know for you I don't need to put it in a motion, because typically when I just ask you, you you do that anyway. Um so I would request that you explore uh what are some of the cost sharing of um infrastructural um, you know, maintenance benefits that we can do, because we're also going to be I'm also going to be inquiring about that when we go to do the budget as a as a means of trying to trim the fat off the budget. So just giving you a heads up. Thank you.

Jason Lyon

Thank you.

Fred A. Neil

Any other members with questions? Dr. Sudler, would you make the motion?

Roy Sudler, Jr.

Thank you for recognizing me again. I move to accept staff recommendation.

Fred A. Neil

It's been moved to accept staff recommendation. It's been properly seconded. Dr. Sudler moved it. Mr. Chervak seconded for the uh minutes purposes. Any discussion? All right, Madam Clerk, please call the roll since this is a substantial expenditure.

City Clerk

Ms. Hall?

Donyale M. Hall

Yes.

City Clerk

Dr. Pillsbury?

Andre M. Boggerty

Yes.

City Clerk

Oh, skipped you. I got you, Mr. Boggerty. Dr. Pillsbury?

Julia M. Pillsbury

Yes.

City Clerk

Ms. Arndt?

Tricia K. Arndt

Yes.

Gerald L. Rocha, Sr.

building? Mr. Kopp, welcome. Eddie Kopp, uh Chief Code Enforcement Officer.

Eddie Kopp

Good evening. Uh before you is um an ordinance to amend Chapter 22, the Dangerous Building. Um on this, to sum this up, the the amendment uh does some text clarifications in there and changes the wording from building inspector to code official to be aligned with the ICC codes. Um the building inspector by default in our current code refers to the director of planning and inspections, and the director of planning and inspections does not enforce the dangerous building code or condemned buildings, it's the code official who does it. So that's why those amendments are in there. Um in addition, there's some grammar corrections, and there's one section in there to where it was just one long run-on uh sentence under the section for demolition, and it was broken up to clarify it and be more um user-friendly for the constituents. I'll take any questions.

Gerald L. Rocha, Sr.

Questions? Councilwoman Arndt.

Tricia K. Arndt

Thank you. Um it looks great. I mean it it reads better. It the um amendments are very simple and straightforward, so with that, I I'd like to make a motion to approve staff recommendation.

Roy Sudler, Jr.

Second by Sudler.

Gerald L. Rocha, Sr.

Been moved by Councilwoman Arndt, seconded by Dr. Sudler to approve the staff recommendation and uh basically um forward it with a positive recommendation to City Council. All right, discussion? All right. All those in favor?

Tricia K. Arndt

Aye.

Gerald L. Rocha, Sr.

Any opposed? Well, I should have asked if there's any public comment. Okay. Any opposed? Seeing none, the motion is adopted.

Gerald L. Rocha, Sr.

That brings us to the third item, which is proposed ordinance 20- 23-04, amending building code uh, 22, building and building uh regulations, Article 12, vacant buildings. Mr. Kopp, it's back to you.

Eddie Kopp

Good evening again. Before you um is Chapter 22 uh in reference to vacant buildings. Our vacant building ordinance is a little outdated and in need of some fine-tuning. Um the pro- the proposed amendments are to clarify some language in there. Um what we're dealing with is there's a lot of interpretation issues when it comes to vacant buildings. So some of the things that I I'm proposing in here is to establish clear deadlines and standards within the vacant building ordinance uh and to clarify some languages within the vacant building ordinance. Also within the vacant building ordinance, um right now the vacant building ordinance is geared towards residential properties. Uh there are several properties, um specifically downtown, that are not being captured under the vacant building ordinance um that are just dwindling away, and it's my opinion that it's unfair to our um residents that the commercial businesses are not being held to the same standard. Um therefore, I am recommending that

Eddie Kopp

that we change language to update that, um, accordingly. Uh, some of the things, the, uh, basic numbers that I've ran prior to this meeting, and this is 5 minutes before walking into the meeting, is we had 22 cases that are older than 5 years old. Or, uh, we had two cases that date back to the year 2012. These are vacant building cases. Um, as of today we have 145 vacant building cases that are active, and just food for thought, last year we conducted 1,700 inspections, um, from January 1st to 12/31/2025 in reference to vacant buildings. Um, so the vacant buildings, it's an ongoing problem. I believe with the amendments to the ordinance, that 100 145 active vacant building cases would more likely double, um, which doesn't say that the buildings aren't vacant. We have about 300 vacant buildings throughout the city, but we're only addressing 145 of them. And that is why I am proposing the amendments with this ordinance, and I'm open to any questions.

Andre M. Boggerty

Yeah. Questions? Dr. Sudler.

Roy Sudler, Jr.

Thank you. I yield to the Council President.

Fred A. Neil

Oh, okay. Thank you, um, Councilman Sudler. Uh, on numbers, uh, page, line 178, number six, uh, on page 28, a vacant first floor storefront is otherwise that in an otherwise occupied building in the Downtown Development District may be exempt, provided the owner demonstrates they're trying to sell or lease the property during the vacancy period. That's kind of difficult, isn't it? Um, basically, it's occupied in part, and the only thing that's open is the is is, uh, the the the storefront area. Uh, now, you have, uh, designation in there the building must provide adequate adver- advertisement, approved by the the Design Committee of the Downtown Partnership. This exemption is granted for a maximum of 2 years. That That's a tough one, Eddie. Um, you've done a great job on both of these ordinances, and the building is not really empty because the presum- I'm presuming that there's apartments upstairs that are being occupied. So we're try- trying to force the the building to become occupied or the rest. Is is there any other wording that we can have in there, or is that going to get us into trouble at some point?

Eddie Kopp

If If I could explain that. Um, a lot of these properties, and particularly downtown with what you described, is the upstairs apartment is being rented or is, um, is full, right? But the downstairs vacant. So, although it's one building, it's two separate, um, issues here. And what what we're having, if you look just right out on Loockerman Street, there's vagrants, there's broken windows, there's shot-up windows, there's trash, there's debris, all happening on the downstairs. But, at the same time, the upstairs is rented. So, the problem is, and it comes down to perception, right? People don't

Code Enforcement Staff

know that the upstairs is rented. We know because we we looked through there. We conduct inspections, we investigate. But the general public has no clue that anyone lives upstairs, and the perception is we're allowing this to happen. Um The big concern and a lot of feedback I'm getting is why are you addressing me when we have downtown vacant, and a good amount of Loockerman Street is sitting empty right now. And um as a code official, I feel I'm doing an injustice to everyone to allow that to continue, and that's why I'm presenting that forward. I understand it's it's difficult, but the idea behind this is we're holding them to the same standard that we're holding residential properties. And that's why um that's why we presented this, and I'm open to change any wording that or make any amendment that council sees fit.

Fred A. Neil

I'm questioning whether or not um we can run into an attorney saying, "My building's occupied. That building is occupied. My client's building's occupied." And so, I I'm bringing it up because I don't want future problems. Do I agree with what you said? Absolutely. Uh, we need we need to have that refreshed. We have need to have activity in in those buildings.

Fred A. Neil

We need either having boarded up in such a way that it's handled that we can't have people come in, destroy it from the inside and out. But it's a point that I'm just bringing up to suggest that we could have a legal problem, and maybe have to have our attorney to take a look at it whether you can have an occupied building that is vacant at the same time, and what what the status is. So I'm running into the same problems that you presented to us with the revenue or the revenue bill that we hope to get back on to track. But it is just a question mark that I'm bringing up at this point that you have an occupied building with the vacancy that is uh uh that uh is considered uh empty and enforceability sale. That's all. I yield.

Code Enforcement Staff

If If I could, um I think just clarifying it and um rewording it to include "unit" or "space" um to have a clear distinction within the definition um would help clarify this.

Fred A. Neil

Yeah, I would I would suggest that we do so that we don't run into, as I've been doing, some attorney coming in and saying, "Wait a minute. This is not a not a vacant building." I yield.

David L. Anderson

Thank you. Uh Dr. Sudler?

Roy Sudler, Jr.

Thank you, uh, Chairman Anderson for recognizing me. Uh just looking at, you know, some information um in regards to um some of the thresholds for occupancy. Um here it says uh for insurance purposes, a commercial building is often legally considered vacant if less than 31% of its total square footage is occupied. Maybe maybe um looking into uh addressing that concern of the Council President's and, I'm sure, of all of us and others, um maybe we could look at

Andre M. Boggerty

how that might be a good remedy for addressing of that matter, a certain percentage. Um, but overall, I think your approach, I support your position on the matter. Um, I think that, um, in all fairness and equity, that I think that's a that's a great approach. Um, I think that will also help, too, for those who own businesses, um, downtown, it's like a mixed use, right? So you have residential, and then you have commercial. I think that will encourage them to get the entire building functional and occupied rather than saying, "Well, there's really no big rush because I'm getting income from upstairs, which is sustainable because I can get at least maybe I have like three units upstairs, that's at least four grand, you know, these days, you know." Um, so therefore, you know, I can afford for downstairs not to be, you know, occupied. And, but it's a bad look

Andre M. Boggerty

for Downtown Dover and for what we're trying to do. So you have my 100% support. Um, I would just um urge that you um get with our Council President to see how he wants to proceed in regards to um a legal advice or a legal opinion on the matter, and I would leave that up to Council President, um especially since you brought that up. But I support um your amendments, and I thank you for the hard work that you put into this. It's it's very thoughtful and time-consuming, and it has not gone unnoticed. I yield. Thank you.

Speaker

Did you hear, Council President? Um, do you have anything to add, Fred Neil?

Fred A. Neil

I I'm going to request that it be delayed, uh postponed, and take a second look at it uh and bring it back to us as quickly as possible with with looking at the point that can it be empty? Can we force an owner to sell under those circumstances? And have counsel take a look at that uh to see whether we can, what the wording can be. Yes, Coun- Council-

David L. Anderson

Now, now uh before we do that, um I believe it was that it that is similar to what we have already, that is marketed for sale or lease. So um they can, as long as if they have if they can keep it, we're not forcing the sale. But we just want it actively marketed, um whether they want to lease it or to a client, tenant, or sell it, whatever their option is. Just want to make sure that that's correct, right?

Speaker

Yeah, and just for clarifications, uh what we're discussing is an exemption. So, this is what would be um considered to grant an exemption from the vacant building uh registration fee.

David L. Anderson

So you wouldn't get have to pay the fee, so you would considered it's sort of like the exempt it's clarifying the existing exemption.

Speaker

Correct. Yes, thank you.

David L. Anderson

I just I just wanted to make sure that we're on the same page on that.

David L. Anderson

All right. Okay, uh before I entertain a motion, I had uh was going to recognize uh Councilwoman Arndt.

Tricia K. Arndt

Thank you. So I was just going to express support for the ordinance as well and and the points that you had made, especially the downtown buildings where the apartments rented so they're making enough to cover the mortgage or the rent or what have you, so they're not actively marketing those down first floor spaces. With respect to Councilman Neil's concerns, other municipalities are doing similar, and I was thinking that Smyrna had an ordinance that addressed these types of situations. So I just pulled it up. I can't find that part specifically, but the exemption, the way it's worded in the Smyrna ordinance, which you probably already looked at it in your research, but it says the building is if it's being actively marketed by a licensed real estate broker or owner who is regularly advertising the property in newspapers circulated in the town of Smyrna. So they got really specific with, you know, you better be advertising, you better be working hard to get this property sold, as opposed to how it is currently in your ordinance with approved by the design committee of the Downtown Dover Partnership. I served on the design committee, their focus primarily on what the sign would look like. And I think maybe having a licensed real estate broker or actively marketing it would be more impactful than having the design committee review the sign in the window. So, thank you. I yield.

David L. Anderson

Thank Thank you uh. Yeah, I I do think that newspapers sort of out-dated that that anything that an MLS is probably more, you know, impactful as well as other forms of marketing, so I I like actively marketing, but in the area, so we can figure that out exactly what that means. Uh Dr. Sudler might have a comment, uh but then I'll unless somebody else has something, I'll entertain the motion. Dr. Sudler?

Roy Sudler, Jr.

Thank Thank you, Chairman Anderson, for recognizing me. I will be brief. Um I was just wondering if maybe we could um adopt this ordinance um with with the understanding that that segment would be revisited um to echo the sentiment of uh Councilman Council President Neil and Councilwoman Arndt uh which I concur. So I was wondering um I think that is somewhat permissible, but it's it's been it's been a minute. I'm not quite sure.

David L. Anderson

Um you you could uh you could make a motion that it be advanced uh on the condition of amendments uh reflecting the sentiment of expressed by uh Council President Neil and Councilwoman Arndt. Um that would be uh appropriate. That's one way to do it. And the other way would be to uh just uh defer for a couple weeks and and uh see what the amendments look like. It's it's up to the committee how the committee wishes to do it.

Roy Sudler, Jr.

And and my only concern about

Gerald L. Rocha, Sr.

deferring it a couple of weeks. Um we never know what may transpire or take place, and I think that, when we deal with codes um, especially of this magnitude, and this is going to be uh an eye opener for those who are going to be impacted uh with the commercial uh buildings/mixed use, um I think it's probably best to do it now than later. That's just my view, but I will go with the majority of the consensus of council and the committee as a whole. All right. Thank you.

David L. Anderson

Thank you. I have some comments, but before I do, do any members of the public have any comments?

David L. Anderson

Okay. Just, just checking. Wanted to make sure that we have that opportunity there.

David L. Anderson

I I want to thank you for the work that you've done, and I I find it uh uh I find both of these ordinances I think you've done due diligence with the proposals. I I think, obviously, um um it's fair to address the policy aspect when it comes to, because uh vacant buildings is a very touchy issue.

David L. Anderson

Mm.

David L. Anderson

Uh have you heard any input from um in dialogue permitted, um have you heard any input from the DDP, or the folks downtown, the merchants, or anything? Because this has been put out for a little bit. I have not.

Speaker

Not directly um, not that I'm aware of, not.

David L. Anderson

All right. Thank you.

Speaker

Nothing since it's been posted.

David L. Anderson

Thank you. I'm sure I'm sure they'll have that opportunity, and I'm sure we'll hear something.

Speaker

Oh, for sure. I'm su- I'm surprised.

David L. Anderson

Um the uh I I do have uh a another question. Something that has been brought up uh a while ago in the uh in the code board property code needs this code board of appeals um was that when we did an adjustment to the uh vacant building ordinance, that we needed to put in a a a section addressing the difference between vacant and uh temporarily unoccupied homes so that it could would say that if uh a home is being um maintained properly, that as long as the owner occupies it at least 6 months of the year, it would not be considered vacant. Um because that way, uh we we're getting people moving in, retired people, we're likely more and more people uh who are um living part of the year in their old home or in Florida, or Arizona, right, exactly. And they come back here. Now, several of them, technically, by our vacant building ordinance, technically, it's a vacant building, and they should get a accelerating fine. It usually doesn't happen, but sometimes it does, and they end up before the Code Board of Appeals and proving that they they are owner occu-

Gerald L. Rocha, Sr.

and they've been keeping up and they don't have any code violations and all that, and it would just be easier I think for staff if if that were in writing and and if that's not up to somebody, a neighbor gets mad at somebody that that they all of a sudden do that out of the blue. That that's something I'd I'd like us to, when we're looking at amendments, look at just so we can clarify the difference between a temporarily unoccupied building and a vacant building. If it's owner-occupied at least half the year, it should be it shouldn't be considered vacant because the person has a right to their property and they have a right to to live in their property without the government telling them exactly how, you know, that that, oh, you you're shouldn't three months, you know. And so that's my that that's my major concern there. Do you have any comments, sir? And I'll recognize Councilman Boggerty.

Christopher Taylor

Um, I I do agree, and I think you're you have great intent. I think that would be best placed under the exemption, and it could be a permanent exemption. The reason for it is is it would be good to document and track these homes that may be unoccupied for six months. Um, not to advertise to the public, but for our own records, and in the event the fire department, the police department would need that information, I think it would be good to have that information to be able to document and track them. So, I do agree with that, and that's that's an easy amendment in the same section under the exemptions.

Gerald L. Rocha, Sr.

Christopher, if you could uh have drawn one up that meets the pleasure of staff, as well as that of Council Committee, that would be appreciated. And I think that will help help you all out, too, as well as the people. Councilman Boggerty, you're recognized.

Andre M. Boggerty

Thank you. And I just want to also ask, and maybe I didn't see it, perhaps some language for property who has not started development yet because brownfield studies are taking place and and, you know, if individuals are concerned about, you know, certain situations where you can't start until brownfield studies are complete. Or is that in the-

Christopher Taylor

Brownfield is an exemption.

Andre M. Boggerty

It's an exemption. It's noted in there clearly? Okay.

Christopher Taylor

Yeah, brownfield.

Andre M. Boggerty

All right, I just want to say thank you. Thank you for that.

Christopher Taylor

Thank you. It's important.

Andre M. Boggerty

It's very.

Gerald L. Rocha, Sr.

All right, yeah. Now-

Fred A. Neil

Mr. Chairman, what we have two items with that. My suggestion is why don't we just have him come back with those two items added into it?

Gerald L. Rocha, Sr.

Is that a motion?

Fred A. Neil

That's a motion.

Councilmember

I'll second.

Gerald L. Rocha, Sr.

and seconded to uh bring it back in at the next meeting um with uh the proposed amendments. Is there uh is there a discussion? Dr. Sudler.

Roy Sudler, Jr.

Discussion. That's in two weeks, right?

Roy Sudler, Jr.

Okay, I'm good with that.

Roy Sudler, Jr.

All right. It's it's that's what I heard, right?

Julia M. Pillsbury

Yes.

Roy Sudler, Jr.

Okay. Dr. Pillsbury, you're recognized.

Julia M. Pillsbury

I would also suggest that the attorney review it in light of, um, Councilman President, um, Neil's suggestion. Yes. Um, that we have them review it before it comes back.

Roy Sudler, Jr.

That sounds reasonable, and, uh, we can...

City Staff

Um, Mr. Chair, if if I could, just for clarification, um, all ordinances or amendments do go to, um, the attorney for review, or the city solicitor for review.

Julia M. Pillsbury

So did he have concerns about it? I mean, I thought, um, President Neil's concerns were very legitimate, and if he's reviewed it and didn't feel there was a concern, it may be a non-issue, but...

Roy Sudler, Jr.

Well, it may also be maybe that concern wasn't top of mind. Sometimes you, once it's brought up you think, hmm, you know, and you start looking at those questions. So now that there's been, you know, a concern he'll look at it, and if it's and if it's covered well, he'll just tell us that, you know.

City Staff

And different perspectives. I mean, I didn't pick up on it, um, so, and I wrote the ordinance. So it's very easy to miss.

Roy Sudler, Jr.

It is. It is. All right. If there...

City Staff

If I could, just for clarification, what meeting we're talking about, um, in two weeks?

Roy Sudler, Jr.

The the CCW, like you said. And then we'll move it on. At least I think we will. I obviously can't... You never know. It's good, as well, not everybody's here. All right.

Roy Sudler, Jr.

Is there any other discussion? All in favor of the motion? Everyone clear what the motion is? All right, all in favor of the motion say aye.

Julia M. Pillsbury

Aye.

Roy Sudler, Jr.

And, good. Anyone opposed? The motion carries. Thank you.

City Staff

Thank you.

Roy Sudler, Jr.

It is. Is there any other business for the Legislative, Finance, and Administration Committee?

Mrs. Skellington

I have something to say.

Roy Sudler, Jr.

Okay. Come on, come on down, Ms. Skilling, Mrs. Skellington?

Mrs. Skellington

I'm getting old.

Mrs. Skellington

I have a question. I live on, one side of my house is on Cecil Street, the other side is on Kirkwood Street. There's a telephone pole back there that I would like to know if there's any way we can get a camera there, because on Cecil Street there's no houses. The only thing there is, are one house and a church. Two weeks ago, I'll say two and a half weeks ago, my son's car was vandalized. Don't know what time. I'm not up all night to watch people walk the street. I did find out there is a bunch of homeless people that walk that street all hours of the night, and there's a church that does homeless for men. Is there any possible way that we can get a camera put out there? I mean, there is one on Kirkwood Street, but I don't know how far that camera twists around to catch...

Public Commenter

that. Or the passionate side.

Roy Sudler, Jr.

I wish I had my I accidentally left my phone in the uh yeah, I think it's in the either in the car or the house, because I was in a hurry to get here because I didn't get off work and home till um about 7 minutes before 6:00. So, but I have the answer, because I did um uh put put in uh that re- that question to uh to city staff, and the Police Chief says not at this time because our camera network is um has the maximum number of cameras available to it. However, if we uh choose to expand that camera network, um which which is uh possible if we up for discussion and budget that, then the answer is yes, because there is a you have um a case that can be made for that, because you have uh uh commercial, residential, et cetera, you know, right right in that area, you have

Public Commenter

So you're saying that the only way they're going to put cameras in is when they build them four condos out there, but the people that are living out there now doesn't need the protection, is that what you're saying?

Roy Sudler, Jr.

I'm I'm saying that there is there are no more cameras that are going up anywhere in the city at this time. We're going to have If we want more, we're going to have to address that in the budget uh hearing and in the budget, and see and expand the number of cameras available. Uh it's the same problem they're having in Barrister Place, they want to put, and that really needs cameras, because people are dying out there.

Public Commenter

Yeah.

Roy Sudler, Jr.

And and they and they can't even put cameras there. And because, any more cameras, because um the network is has reached its maximum limit.

Public Commenter

Okay.

Andre M. Boggerty

Uh Dr. Sudler, uh thank you. Um maybe we could look at those areas that that there are cameras that are having um very low criminal activity occurring, and maybe we could um maybe not have to use those and substitute not using that or cutting off that network for in those low areas of crime for, and then substituting it for a camera in high areas of crime, and maybe alternate um periodically um until we can afford to address that from a a budget. You know You know what I'm saying?

Roy Sudler, Jr.

Yeah, I do. Yeah, I mean

Andre M. Boggerty

can't change the infrastructure, but I I hear what you're saying that our network won't allow for additional data and additional, but if we cut off a camera here and then cut it on over here, then then that substitution might might work. I don't know, I'm just brainstorming and I'm like My words got

Roy Sudler, Jr.

Well, I think it's a reasonable suggestion to say um because when is our camera network been re-evaluated um based upon the the hot data? Um that uh to see if there's

Roy Sudler, Jr.

So, room for minor adjustments, I don't think that's an unreasonable request to ask. And because I'm sure that there's I'm sure that somewhere out of I can't say the number because of propriety, but out of the hundreds of cameras we have, I can say that, that there's that that some of them have been put up there years and years ago, and I'm sure there's room to at least evaluate it. And I would be glad to just entertain a motion to recommend that an evaluation of the camera network take place to maximize effective locations.

Andre M. Boggerty

I move to I move to do an evaluation on the cameras that are currently in place to see how if they're functioning, and if those are not functioning, we can substitute those for ones that are needed in the designated areas, such as Butler Place and Kirkwood Street-

Donyale M. Hall

Cecil.

Andre M. Boggerty

Cecil Street, um, and does that does that pretty much cover it?

Roy Sudler, Jr.

Sure, and if

Public Commenter

How can we find out if the cameras are actually working?

Roy Sudler, Jr.

And and it's um they well, in fact, there's different ones. If you have a question about one, shoot it to one of us, and we'll we'll ask that question. Because I've I've done that. I've asked about the operational aspect of different cameras. And yes, Mr. You're on motion. We will recognize you all. Um, is there a second for the motion?

Fred A. Neil

Neil seconds.

Roy Sudler, Jr.

Been seconded by uh Council President Neil. Uh, discussion?

Public Commenter

I have a security concern. She's mentioning cameras. Can I please express a security concern?

Roy Sudler, Jr.

Yes.

Public Commenter

I first want to acknowledge that Dover PD did an excellent job. My friend's store was robbed, or attempted to be robbed. It got on the blotter, and I was able to talk to Dr. Councilman Boggerty and Ms. Hall, and uh Mr. Lewis. This individual robbed three stores or broke in, did damage. Um, he's innocent until proven guilty. He's damaged the stores, he robbed the stores, he's out on unsecured bail, so he's going to rob more people.

Public Commenter

This is going to increase the insurance for these stores, they're going to pass it on to the consumer. Something's got to be done, because our police are doing their job. This gentleman didn't rob allegedly didn't rob one store, but three. It was on the blotter this morning at 10:30. That's, excuse my French, that's asinine. Our cops are working hard, and he's out before the paperwork's cleared.

Public Commenter

a thousand dollars and he got it fixed. I mean, I don't know about you, I can't take a thousand-dollar hit all the time, right? Well, I appreciate your time. Thank you for letting me speak.

David L. Anderson

Well, thank you for your comments. All right. If everyone, Mr. Garfinkel.

Jonathan Garfinkel

Yeah, I I just ask the maker of that motion to delete the part where he talks about maybe putting cameras on this street and that street. I think that just muddies the waters for Dover PD. I think a simple motion to for Dover PD to assess the efficacy of the camera system and let let them come back with some answers. Don't don't give them the answers.

Andre M. Boggerty

That's just fine with me. Thank you for your your feedback.

David L. Anderson

Second agree? Second agreed. So the the motion goes back to the the original suggestion, which is for...

Andre M. Boggerty

Yeah, actually, what I'll do is um, I'll rescind my motion, and Mr. Garfinkel, can you make the motion?

Jonathan Garfinkel

Yeah. My motion, I'll be happy to. I'll be happy to.

Andre M. Boggerty

Thank you. Go ahead, Mr. Garfinkel.

Jonathan Garfinkel

My motion will be is to instruct Dover PD to conduct an efficacy study of the camera system and report back to committee.

Andre M. Boggerty

And I'll second.

David L. Anderson

Sounds great to me. Uh, discussion? All in favor?

Jonathan Garfinkel

Aye.

Andre M. Boggerty

Aye.

David L. Anderson

Any opposed? Thank you. And since this was a um just a internal staff recommendation, it's not really a substantive motion, um you know, it's just recommending staff look at something. Um that and I wanted to point that out because there are rules about what can get added, what can't, uh without notice and posting and the like. We're not proposing any policy, any changes, anything else. Just asking for an evaluation. All right. Thank you. Well, sir.

Roy Sudler, Jr.

Uh, just point of clarity, thank you. Because now the police are involved and we're talking about safety, would that then move to Safety Advisory and Transportation?

David L. Anderson

Yes. It should. When it comes back and they do the evaluation, I think that would be absolutely appropriate.

Roy Sudler, Jr.

So do I. Thank you for confirming things, yeah. Make me feel good. Thank you.

David L. Anderson

All right. With that, if there's if there's no further business for the in this the uh for the Legislative, Finance, and Administration Committee, we stand adjourned.

Fred A. Neil

Is any other business before this Council tonight? Hearing none, the meeting is adjourned.